Career agility, Joelle Smith, President of First Advantage

[00:00:10] Hey, this is William Tincup and Ryan Leary, and you are listening, hopefully watching, in the Inside the C-Suite podcast. We've got Joelle Smith from First Advantage on today. First of all, Ryan, how are you doing? I am fantastic because this is tag teaming again. Yes, it is. And I like when we have two all one. Yeah, this is good. This is good. Two Chile, one Dallas. That's right.

[00:00:38] I usually play the fight song around here. Yes, he does. It's, yeah. And here's the deal. You know, we could do that, right? Should we just let it play the whole time? We could do that. She knows the words. She knows the words. Of course I know the words. Born and raised in Philly. When he says stuff we don't want, Joelle, I'll just play it. Or I'll play it. Go birds! Perfect. And then it'll just mute him out. It'll be like his censor.

[00:01:08] You know, kicking a Cowboys fan is like, you know, really, it's like kicking somebody that's elderly. You don't need to do it. No, it's still fun. No, this is still fun. It kind of is. The job's just, they don't get, they don't know they're not bad. No. No, I tell Ryan this. Every summer is the same thing. Coming out of the spring, same thing. It's like, this is the year. This is the year. You get into preseason. This is the year. You get into the first five or six games, usually by week seven.

[00:01:38] We're already talking, like Sports Talk Radio is already talking about next year's pick. Like what we're going to get in the draft. Yeah. That's every year. For 30 years, it's the same bit. Same bit. Would you do us a favor and introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about you. Sure. Absolutely. Well, super happy to be here. Thanks so much for having us. I am, Joel Smith, as you said, the president of First Advantage.

[00:02:05] First Advantage is a publicly traded company on NASDAQ. And we just made an acquisition. So we're a little busy, but I'm super happy to be here and talk about it. A little tiny acquisition. Good gosh. A little bit. A little bit. A little bit. That's Sterling, right? We're talking about the acquisition of Sterling. That was a fantastic. We have a news show on Sundays. And we recorded because you announced, I think, in February or January somewhere. That's right.

[00:02:33] And then you closed the deal somewhere recently. November 1st. Yeah. So it takes like six or seven months for everything to clear? Is that what it is? Yeah. I don't know where that came from. Well, okay.

[00:03:03] So current role. How long have you been in your current role? I've been the president here about three years. Wow. Okay. All righty. Well, Brian, why don't we go backwards? Let's do it. Joel, it's time to learn about you. All right. Buckle up. No, just kidding. Scrappy Philly girl coming after you. I was about to say. Where does this go next? Now, you were born and raised in Philly, right?

[00:03:33] You're not a transplant. Yeah. Right outside. So I'm not technically in the city, but yes. It's still the same. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Still the same. Still the same. Still the same. So why don't we – let's go back towards college. Did you stay local for college? Let's talk about that, and then we'll jump into what makes you work here. Yeah, absolutely. So I did – I stayed in Pennsylvania. Went to East Stroudsburg. So state school.

[00:04:02] So didn't really kind of fly the coop, if you will, until well after that. So very much stayed in and around the tri-state area. But yeah, funnily, I went to school for biology and marine science. That totally makes sense. It's nothing to do with technology, AI, data, or sales, which I'm in now. So it's been a journey.

[00:04:28] You know, when I went to Alabama for undergrad, the career advisor told me one in four – this is 91, so a lot of data since then. But she said, listen, one in four, you work 25%. You work in your major. That's what the stats are right now from graduation. Yep. And so really, it doesn't matter. And so that's what she said. It doesn't matter. You want to get a business degree? Great. Get a business degree.

[00:04:56] You want to do – and then she said, what are you good at? I'm like, well, I've always liked art. I've painted since I was really young. She goes, do art. Go do art history, art studio. Go do that because it'll be easy for you. I'm like, all right. So I did an art history degree. So again, didn't – and I helped the stats out because I'm not working in my major. So there's that. So where is that school related to Philadelphia?

[00:05:27] It's about two hours north. It's in the Pocono Mountains. Oh, pretty. Okay. We called it 13th grade is what we called it. That's very true. Yep. Exactly. And not a knock on the education because everybody went there. You went there or you went to Temple. That was kind of the – Ryan went to Temple. Yeah, very popular. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. I wanted Strasburg, but wasn't allowed to go there. Yeah, I got the same thing. Like, you know, why are you going so far away?

[00:05:56] I'm like, it's two hours. Go to Temple. Exactly. And live at Ambler. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The community college is fine. But no, I decided I want a little something more. So I pushed the envelope and really tried to, you know, set the tone. I was actually the first in my whole family to graduate college. So that was kind of broke the mold there. It was – That's very cool. What are you doing? That's right. Handsome pressure.

[00:06:25] What is this college thing? Yeah. Well, my dad was the first. So, like, I get it. And everyone asks the same questions. It's like, why would you go to college? Why would you even do that? So I get it. Well, with a biology degree, what did you want to do? What was the dream at that particular? You know, the standard. Let's, you know, go play with dolphins and study the ocean.

[00:06:51] And, you know, we'll – maybe we'll, you know, head into the nursing or pre-med or whatever. Like, I had no idea. I was 17 and I had no clue. I know I didn't want to stay in the area where I grew up. Not because I didn't love the people there, but I wanted more. I was curious. I wanted to travel. I wanted to get outside. And I just had this bug. I had to kind of see what it was all about.

[00:07:15] And, of course, there were no jobs for East Stroudsburg landlocked, you know, graduates coming out of, you know, with a marine science degree. Right. That made any kind of money. You know, so I went back to the drawing board and got a job as tech support supporting a local – it was kind of local. So it was Wharton Econometric – sorry, Wharton Econometric Forecasting Associates. They had an economic forecasting modeling software.

[00:07:44] And they're like, we need somebody to answer the phones and to help people with their tech problems. I was like, okay, I can do that, you know. Gotcha. So came out of the gate making, you know, 11, 12 bucks an hour. It's like, all right, when can I get my first apartment? And I'm like, wow. In two years. I can't do anything with it. Right. Yeah. I'm like, this is not enough to live on. I was like, what is this farce that you go to college and all of a sudden you make money and you do stuff. Isn't it the shock?

[00:08:14] I think we probably all had the same shock. The shock that you get your tech. And you look at your check and you're like, is something wrong? Yep. Did they do the math right? I like the videos. Yeah. No, totally. I like the videos of people when they give their kids the first paycheck and they're like, what is this? And what is this? Exactly. Exactly. Now go to the Apple store and try and buy something. Good luck. Right. That's hilarious. But it got you into tech. I mean. It's it.

[00:08:45] It's it. I learned a lot. You have to, in tech support, you have to learn on, I mean, because they're asking you questions, you've actually got to learn it, learn it. You can't just kind of fluff your way through that. Ryan, you were left-esque. And you have to be sharp on your feet too, which I learned. I learned a lot. I asked a lot of questions. Learned a lot from a lot of different people. I learned a lot about software. I learned about the underpinnings of how it works. I learned, you know, how to use it properly, how to, you know, set it up, install it.

[00:09:14] Back in those days, it was, you know, the CD ROM. Insert the CDs. With the autoexec.bat. And I'm like, oh my gosh. We're going to know you, the CDs. Okay. Great. The fact that you just said autoexec.bat, that just tells us everything we need to know. I'm hating myself here. No, no. We're tracking. No, because we had to do the same stuff. I don't even think they called it on-premise.

[00:09:41] I mean, it was on-premise software, of course, but I don't remember them calling it that. I just remember them saying it's software. Because there was no cloud at the time, right? That's right. It didn't need a name. It was just what it was. Yeah, we're just going to send you CD ROMs. You've got one of 10. Oh, okay. I'll just sit here and load these CDs. Good. Yeah. This is what you're getting paid for. See? That's right. So, Joelle, let's talk about school for a little bit. I know we want to get into your career, but this might be more therapeutic for me.

[00:10:11] My oldest is 17, and she's starting the college journey at this point. We just drove to Maine this week. Oh, nice. And we passed UConn. I said, let's just go visit. It's like right off the exit. No. It's too cold up here. I can't even get them to look. She's come down to Texas. Yeah, she can stay there with you. How about that?

[00:10:36] So, the question I have is so many people, actually a lot of people that listen to this show will be right in that 20 to 25 age range. Sure. And so, they're in college or they're in process of graduating and they're kind of at that crossroads of, what do I do? What do I do now? Right? I went for engineering, but I don't love engineering or I can't find an engineering job. How should they approach that?

[00:11:05] What's your advice there? Yeah. I mean, so, you got to hustle. And you got to. So, doing what you love, of course, is important. But the reality is most people don't get that luxury. Right. But you have to learn how to appreciate what you have and learn the hustle. Because the hustle gets you the job. It gets you the opportunity. It opens up the doors. And so, and that's with anything.

[00:11:33] With a college application or with changing majors. What I found the college to do for me was it really gave me discipline. And it showed me work ethic. So, you know, I always heard about it from like my parents or from, you know, aunts and uncles and other people that kind of influenced me growing up. But until you get to college and you're there benchmarked against all the other kids and you're like, huh, all right. So, like showing up to class is really important.

[00:12:04] Not missing Friday mornings because you were out Thursday night doing whatever. The kids that show up every Friday morning for the 8 o'clock class and do the work and put the effort in and go to the office hours. They learn how to learn. And when you do that, you can apply whatever you need to do for your future goals. Whether it's in your major or out of your major. And employers pick up on that. They like high learning agility.

[00:12:33] And that's something that I kind of always embraced and learned over the years that that gets you really far. The degree confirms that you know how to learn. Whether or not you can continue to build on that learning agility is up to you and your career path and where you go. But as long as you tell a good story for why you did what you did and where you're going and why you want to go there, employers, it will resonate. And they're looking for that extra something because it's a hard job market out there right now. Yeah.

[00:13:04] I love how you said that. Learn to learn, right? If you can get there on a Friday after a Thursday night, wild night out, you're going to learn to learn. And you're going to have that agility to do so. My only difficulty with that is, yes, and it's more of an improv thing, is I think it's your – I think the degree is you're illustrating that you know how to complete something. Yeah. Yeah, true. To finish. That's what Rocky said. You know, the people that did – funny.

[00:13:33] The people that actually did the Friday morning, went to office hours, et cetera, what that showed me was they know how to play the game. It wasn't so much – I mean, learning, yes, but I also noticed a lot of people that went through that process, and they just knew the game. And so they would get the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, they'd learn, but it wasn't about learning. It was about learning the game of learning. I don't know if that makes sense. That takes a lot to get there. Yeah. Oh, no. You've got to be disciplined.

[00:14:03] I mean, to – no, to Joel's point, you've got to be able to be disciplined to be able to play the game. So, yeah. Anyhow, Ryan, I interrupted you. No, no, no. I'm just asking what Rocky said. He should show up on time reasonably well for four years and get a task done. That's what they want to – Yeah, definitely the completion. But when you show up and have the learning to – I don't know if it's the game, but you learn how to complete the task at hand, right?

[00:14:32] How do I pass this test? How do I withdraw early enough to pivot and go somewhere else? Or how do I double down on this, right? Like I just learned that I love this topic. Like what is this major and should I change and figure that out? So, learning about you, learning about what you like, what you don't like and being able to complete it. I fully agree with that. Definitely the completion is key.

[00:14:58] Whether you're skating by with D is for diploma or whether you're nailing it with all A's, like go for it. But you've got to finish for sure. One quick follow-up here. Wait a minute. I'll let you jump in. So, Joel, you just said something that caught my attention. You said withdrawal. So, you said know when to withdraw on time and pivot. So, as an executive, a student, a college graduate comes in there talking with you about their career, maybe for a position, not that you've been interviewing them.

[00:15:28] But how does that resonate with you as an executive to say, if I'm a student, yes, I withdrew from my classes. But this is why. And I have a story. Does that resonate better with you than someone who just powered through it to get it done? It depends on the story. But honesty and integrity go really far, especially this day and age.

[00:15:56] And for me, as the types of, you know, non-learning things that you have, the things that are built inside of you from an early age, that honesty and integrity is important. So, if somebody is honest and says, I withdrew. I did this. It wasn't for me. Here's where I found inspiration, though, and here's where I'm going. Or maybe there was a tragedy or an issue or something within their family and they had to try something else.

[00:16:19] There's a lot of organizations that are really trying to look for people who need just a little bit of extra help. Not because they, you know, they want to hire that for any particular reason, but it's just more about the hunger and the drive there is usually a little bit, you know, more formidable. And drives them to, you know, work just a little bit harder and take a little bit more passion into kind of how they're bringing, what they're bringing to the table. And for me, that's really important.

[00:16:49] And for me, that's really important than somebody who did complete it, doesn't have a story, is just kind of like what's in it for me type of thing, which is possible. And there's a lot out there. But it resonates more for me because that person will be a strong player, but also an influencer in driving the right type of culture you want at your organization. So for me, that's a twofer. You get a hard worker and somebody to drive passion and culture. So that's of value. I love that.

[00:17:17] When I was hiring a lot, my three things that I would look for in a candidate was passion in anything, whatever passion that they have. Ambition, some level of they want to see what's next. They want to understand what's next and kind of how to get to the next place. And also intelligence in a form of IQ and EQ. So not just one or the other, but just a form of like, I can't do anything with somebody that's stupid.

[00:17:46] And no offense to anyone that's stupid, but I can't build upon that's clay. And it's just not good clay. So I found myself when I hired a lot looking for those types of things. And again, IQ, that's great. But if they have no EQ, it cancels out. Same thing with EQ. Yeah, I agree.

[00:18:15] So what did you do after you got bit by the software bug? What did you do next? Yeah. Well, then I got bit by the I want my own place bug. And help desk isn't going to get there. No. So yeah. So then I started asking a bunch of people at work. I was like, what do you do? What's your job? Like, I'd look in the parking lot. And I'm like, oh, there's some nice cars here. Like, let's find out who's driving that car and find out what it is that they do.

[00:18:45] So yeah. Moved up the ranks. Did. Learned the software really well. Did training. Moved more into product. So really trying to understand kind of the product strategy, product management, that kind of stuff. And then once I went through that, I realized the big money was in sales. 100%. So I was like, yeah. All right. Now I'm not going to, you know, build the product, test the product, do that stuff. I'm going to sell it.

[00:19:12] And that's where, you know, those commission checks started coming in. And I was like, all right, this works for me. So my passion was really trying to create something for myself. Yeah. Of course. And really gain a little bit of independence, financial independence. We'll also prove all the naysayers that you went to college for a reason to prove them a bit wrong in a sense. Sales. Sales. At least in my experience, is kind of a great equalizer. You know. It is.

[00:19:42] You know, race, gender, religion, all that stuff. At a certain point, people can care about those things, but they care about quotas more. Sure do. Yeah. So if you hit your quota, fantastic. Doesn't matter. You know, like that's all that really matters for a lot of chief revenue officers. Did you find that when you were going through that process? Was that? Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:20:06] And it was interesting because it was like, you know, before you went into the, when I was doing it, it was before the whole big diversity and inclusion was a thing. Right. Right. And where I started was economic forecasting software. So it was naturally in like R&D for financial services institutions and capital markets.

[00:20:28] So I then got an entree into the capital markets industry, which had like thousands and thousands of women and especially young girls all over the place. There was, you know, I was like the only woman in any, you know, meeting in any team and any sales pitch and anything like that. And it's a tough industry to be in. But it was really, I learned a ton, kind of going back to that learning.

[00:20:56] And it really allowed me to kind of see the best of both worlds of, you know, what is it that kind of going back to that EQIQ? Like you can be really smart, but if you can't read the room when you walk in to see kind of what's happening and what's not being spoken about, like you've lost your opportunity right there out of the gate. And so that was something that I learned, you know, to kind of hone through the help of obviously some mentors and a bunch of other folks to really kind of help take that to that next level.

[00:21:25] What role has sales played in building your future? So obviously, you know, sales is a one point. Continuing on in your career, what was the role that sales played in that? Yeah, it was really about networking and meeting folks and really understanding kind of how business operates. So I was in when I was in sales, the large majority of my career was in IT, like technology consulting.

[00:21:53] So I took what I learned from tech on the help desk and through product. And then I ended up selling consulting services, but technology ones to lots of different companies. Like Booz Allen, Capgemini type stuff? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was a number of smaller mid-tier consulting firm, but it was still one where we had big customers.

[00:22:17] So I got to go into the AIGs of the world and the Goldman Sachs of the world and the KPMGs of the world. And, you know, and so then you see like full, like, okay, what do these companies do? How are they tackling their challenges, right? So sales opened up that door for me to be able to get that full business view of how companies really do what they do and why they're good at what they do and why they continue to do well. And then some companies that didn't because I was also through the 2008 crash

[00:22:47] and where all the companies that we no longer talk about, Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and all that good stuff. You know, so you learn a lot. And when you take kind of all those pieces, it helped to kind of connect those dots. So I went from sales to running business units and really being able to take all the things I learned from all those companies, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Tried not to replicate the bad or the ugly and tried to double down on the good

[00:23:13] and used my contacts to help me kind of learn along the way and bring some of that good stuff to the companies that I was working at. Well, the friends that I've had that both worked on Wall Street but also sold to Wall Street have given me all great stories, not like horror stories. I'm sure there's a bunch of those as well. But what they loved about – like I had a buddy out of business school that sold market research to Wall Street.

[00:23:42] And he said, man, it's easy. I said, do tell. I'd like to know how it's easy. And he said, it's very transactional. Like if you can show value in the first two or three minutes, they're in. Like it's not a long, drawn out – like I have this bit about people that want to sell to HR. We talk to a lot of companies. So it's like I don't want to sell to HR. I'm like, yeah, no one does. So you're not alone.

[00:24:12] But like to finance, especially high finance and investment banking, man, everybody's giving me kind of the same background of like get there. Get there quick. Get to the value. Get to the price. That's right. Like boom, just get – like this is what it is. And again, they either are going to like it and love it and move forward or they're not. Or they'll just say, yeah, we're not going to do that. Okay. That's a fast spell. It's true. That's good though. And they need that.

[00:24:42] It's very much, yeah. The pace there is super high. You know, these guys and gals are making decisions based on what to trade, how to trade, like in seconds. Like you think they can't figure out whether they want to spend a million dollars with you or not in two minutes? They got it. Like, you know, you either hit the mark with what they're looking for at the moment. Your timing – your product has to be right. Price has to be right. But it's usually not price. It's usually product and timing. And then price kind of comes second because you just got to be able to get it in. And yeah, that's absolutely it.

[00:25:10] And you learn that early on and you're smooth sailing. Oh, that's excellent. That is so excellent. Ryan, did you have a question? I'm sorry. Yeah. I wanted to get into – you mentioned – I forget how you presented. You talked about – you leveraged the good and the bad. For sure. Of what you've learned and some of the people. I'd love to get into mentorship at some point. We want to do that now. We could jump into that. I always – How to read the room?

[00:25:39] Yeah, I'll read the room, baby. No, I like to learn about – I like to talk about mentorship, especially at an executive level. How do you leverage mentorship today? Yeah. How do you – how did you leverage it back then? But what is that difference? How does that change along the way? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a little – I have a little bit of different philosophy than I think a lot of people do. There's a lot of companies out there that are matching and kind of setting things up. And sometimes you need that framework. Right.

[00:26:09] That's not how I approach it. And it's not how I have approached it in the past is I feel like the person who desires mentorship or wants to learn needs to find the people they want to learn from. And you have to be bold enough to be able to ask that person if they will provide their time, whether it's 10 minutes a week or a half hour a month or whatever it is. And you have to be purposeful about it. And you have to tell them what you want to get out of it, what you're looking for,

[00:26:38] what made you excited to kind of ask the person and then be respectful of their time. But in doing that, I found that people would want to spend more time to help me like learn and educate and would offer up other things. And like really good mentors will be able to tell you if that's in the wheelhouse and they can kind of really help you in this particular thing. Or in many cases, I've been like actually saying, you know what, you should probably talk to so-and-so.

[00:27:07] And so then I've been introduced to kind of other folks. And it's been a really nice journey to do that. But it's got to be a self-starter. You got to want it kind of goes back to that passion. And if you really do want to learn or you want to understand something, I think like a mentor is kind of like a little bit of, you know, learning something for dummies, like the cliff notes of how to get something done, right? Because you're taking years and years of their experience and you're asking a pointed question, they're giving you that answer.

[00:27:36] And it's an answer that's built on that experience. So it's probably pretty rock solid. But also they hopefully are giving you pointers on, you know, how you can take that information and morph it into something more for yourself and or for others. And I find that that is a really good way to think about it. So I've had people come to me and specifically ask me like, hey, can we do a coffee talk like once a month? You know, I'd just love to steal 15 minutes of your time. And yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:06] But strangely, I have not had a lot of self-starters come and ask me. I've had more people come and ask me like, we need a mentorship program here. And we need to really drive this. And I'm like, do we? Okay. So, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Two questions. That's always been the – go ahead. I would say that's always been the rub on my side. Yeah, me too. I mean because we've talked about this.

[00:28:35] Forced relationships. Yeah, forced relationships, which is obviously what you're talking about. But also that moment of somebody wanting mentorship and not going to Joelle, for example, and saying, I just want to pick your brain. Yeah. How do they – what's that ask? How do they ask that? I feel like people struggle with that on how to ask someone to be a mentor. Yeah. It is – it's hard and it is bold. But, you know, you just got to kind of put yourself out there and realize that vulnerability

[00:29:05] is a strength. And if you are truly asking for something, you are in a vulnerable state. And it doesn't matter how you ask. It really, really doesn't. It's just I have noticed you do this. I like this. And I would like to learn how to do this for my role. And then how can I get to that next role? And so it's just – it's really simple about what did you like? Why do you want it? And then how can you use it?

[00:29:35] And people will figure it out and have a good conversation flow from there. But you got to put yourself out there. And that is the hardest part. It's not asking how it's actually just scheduling the meeting or sending the text or sending an email or whatever it is. And it's just like, oh, my gosh. It's like dating all over again. Like, oh, are they going to respond? Are they going to care? You know? Do they love me? Do they really love me? Do they love me? Right. Exactly. Am I accepted?

[00:30:03] But, you know, don't give up. Because a lot of times – 100%. Senior-level people, they're busy. And they're not not answering because they don't want to. They may have missed it. It may be something that popped up. And so be persistent. If you want it, get it. You know, use your drive to go get what you want. I 100% agree. I think the thing for me is pick your brain is code for waste of time for me.

[00:30:31] It's like when I hear the phrase – in fact, I wrote an article on LinkedIn about it 100 years ago. I'm like, yeah, don't ever say that to me. Like, if you come with something specific, like, William, I'd like to know, boop, whatever that is, I'll carve out whatever time. I'm good. But I got to have an agenda. In fact, I worked with a guy 100 years ago where you could not put a meeting on his calendar unless there was an agenda. An agenda. Yeah. I heard that. It's like he just wouldn't – It's good. It is. It is.

[00:31:01] For some. For others, I am sure it's – you know, depending on the role, whatever. So two questions. One is, is the mix of your mentors in terms of male, female, et cetera? The second is, is, you know, the difference between mentoring and coaching. Yeah. For you. Yeah. So answer in any way you like. We're good. Yeah. So, no, I mean, the mix is a mix.

[00:31:29] There's – I would say it's probably 50-50. And I would say it's all over. It's, I would say, early stage career seekers. And it's also mid and later stage. And it really just depends. And I think that actually dovetails into the mentor versus coach. Because I think as you get a little further along in your career, I think you kind of – it

[00:31:55] naturally evolves to more of a coaching because you've got pointed questions. You've got pretty, you know, hairy, scary topics to cover as you kind of rise up the ranks and do that. And a lot of it usually ends up around what my next career move should be. That's a very, very common answer. And that's usually when an individual is at an inflection point of, have I really hit my ceiling or do I still have growth to go?

[00:32:22] And they're grappling with, like, what is that next step? Am I being self-aware enough to know, like, maybe I have reached a level of, you know, and is there anything wrong with that? And the answer, by the way, is no. In fact, that's wonderful self-assessment and realization. So I think that's when it really kind of starts to convert. Whereas you can – coaching, you can have like a good kind of conversation that's a little more two-way.

[00:32:49] And you get more out of it that is like a deduction of reasoning as opposed to a direct answer of what should be done. And I think that's really what I've seen kind of happen, especially with the folks that I talk to regularly. So of the people of our age, what I've noticed with females is early stage in their career, a lot of their mentors were men. And then as they get to a certain point, then they mentor a lot of women.

[00:33:18] Yes, that's true. And which is, you know, probably just the stage or the timing of where we are in society. But it's cool to see. It's cool to see people that actually want to be mentors. Like, I really have a lot of respect for people that want to put themselves out there. But I think you're right. I think people – to get there, you've got to be aggressive. And you've also got to be vulnerable, which those two don't usually go hand in hand.

[00:33:48] No, but you need it. You need it in business and you need it to be successful. So the people that master that will go far for sure. Because it's confidence on one level. And at the same time, confidence does not run parallel to vulnerability. You know, you almost box that stuff up and just play your confidence and ambitious stuff. So I think – okay, so after the consulting bit, what did we do next? Yeah.

[00:34:17] Well, that's where I ran a couple of business units. But in sales, I took a couple chances on some – Right. Did you see how she just kind of – I ran a couple businesses. Did you see like a throwaway comment? Like, hey, you know, I ran SAP. What? Dude, seriously. No, I wasn't SAP. Nothing by industry. No. But it was – Ran a couple businesses. Connecting all the dots though. So front office, I had the tech and product, right?

[00:34:45] And so didn't have kind of the margin, the back end, the operations. So I was like, all right, if I'm going to really know businesses inside and out, I really need to have that full 360 view. Yeah. And so took an opportunity to do that. But it was built on my sales success. They took a chance. That's right. And that was also another thing that I would recommend to a lot of people who are earlier in their career – actually, any part of your career – have confidence in yourself. Ask for what you want. And just because you haven't done it before doesn't mean you can't do it.

[00:35:14] Everybody has a first time. And show the people that you can do it. Because if you believe in it and you sell it with enough conviction, they will believe you and they will give you a shot. And that's what happened. So I was successful with sales, grew a business, you know, multimillion from the ground zero. And they – I was like, now I want to run a business. And so, you know, to do that, it is a little different because you go from high growth.

[00:35:44] Of course, you need profitability. But when you're starting, you know, zero to 25 million, like you – you know, it's not really about as much profitability as it is growth. But then you have to flip at that point and you have to basically get to a point where the business becomes sustainable. And so that's where I pivoted to run some of those business units. And that's actually what took me to First Advantage was, you know, after I ran a few of those business units,

[00:36:09] they had brought me over to do that here for some of the areas that just needed a little love. They needed a little invigoration, a little sales love, a little growth love, and a little bit of help with operations. Well, one of the things that, you know, I think you've proven to me that I kind of already kind of had my finger on that success breeds opportunities. So, Ryan, you remember when we had – she was at Allegius Group.

[00:36:37] She's been in her whole career with Allegius Group, and she was in sales, killing it. And then they had this opportunity to spin out a business, and she said – raised her hand and said, I want to run the business, and they're like, yeah, 100%. Like you've been killing it. Like you've killed it the entire time. Yes, of course you could go run a business.

[00:36:58] But I think that because you were successful in sales, like had you been mediocre or average to maybe slightly above average, I don't know if they would have – I don't know if that would have been an opportunity you would have been able to get. Right. No, I agree. So it's sales excellence that you have. It's anything excellence, and that's when you ask. Good point. You're right. So you ask at the top of your game. That's the other thing. I have a bunch of people that come to me to ask for things when they're unhappy.

[00:37:28] Worst time to ask for anything in business ever. I don't care what stage of your career you're in. Terrible. There's two types of negotiation. Negotiating from a position of weakness or strength. That's right. Right. But it's more like I'm very unhappy that I need to talk to somebody about fixing this problem. And it's like, yeah. You're not going to get what you want, right? But like at the top of your game, like that's why you kind of have to have a plan in your head as to where you want to go in your future.

[00:37:55] So when you reach the top of your game and you're, you know, Saquon Barkley, you know, killing all of the rushing yards. Yeah, I went there. I went there. Jumping over people backwards? Are you kidding me? Yeah. That hurdle was tremendous, right? But like that's the top of your game, right? So that's when you ask for what you want and that's when you ask somebody to take a bet on you and you push yourself. And all of a sudden magic things start to happen when you pick your timing, right? And that's, you know, that's a sales 101 thing, right? Pick your timing.

[00:38:25] Like are they ready to buy? Are they ready to do something? And when there is an opportunity, ask. Just ask. Ask. Yeah. Joelle, final question for me or topic from me is about decision making. I like to get into decision making because I think it's an area a lot of people struggle. 100%. Being decisive. And curious to get your thoughts on this. One, how do you approach decision making? Yep.

[00:38:50] And two, kind of do you need to be – does a leader need to be decisive quickly or can they take their time in making that decision? This is a great topic. Yeah. And of course I'm going to give the horrible answer of it. It depends. It all depends. But no, first of all, a leader has to be – anybody has to be able to make decisions, right?

[00:39:16] If decision making is an uncomfortable topic for you in your personal life and your business life, then you have to work on it. Like this is something that's necessary for – it's a critical life skill that people have to be able to do. But I think what paralyzes a lot of people with decision making is the fear for making the wrong one.

[00:39:36] And so the way I've approached it and the way that I recommend others approach it, and I've learned this through the years from lots of other people, is make a lot of small decisions quickly. Right. Fail fast. So that when those small decisions add up, the big decision becomes pretty obvious because not all those little decisions are going to be spot on.

[00:39:59] And so you can pivot easily with a smaller decision, and then when you get to the point where you have to make that bigger decision, make it. And stand by it. But, you know, don't actually let it kind of run you. If it ends up being the wrong decision, fail fast. Call it out. I've many times said that. I'm like, you know what? I said we should do this. I'm not loving where we're going here. Like the outcome is not – It was my idea. Yeah.

[00:40:27] We got like, you know, reverse. We got to pivot. We got to go. But it's, you know, it's always – it should always be based on data and information. But sometimes you just have to make it because the lack of a decision can be more detrimental to a situation, to team morale, to an organization, to anything moving forward than making the wrong one. So, you know, make it. If you recognize it's not making the right one, change it.

[00:40:56] Don't be afraid to change it. That's another thing that I think another reason why people are so afraid to make the initial decision is like, oh, well, if I do this and what happens? And it's like nobody is perfect. It's not ever going to be 100% right. And so you just have to recognize that. And if you make a mistake, people aren't usually going to remember the mistake you made. What they remember is how you recover from it.

[00:41:19] And that part, that recovery from making a poor decision is what will build so much brand equity for yourself and your business that you want to just, you know, really make sure you enforce that with the people that have to make decisions in their business. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I think the analysis paralysis thing sits with me because sometimes people, they want more data.

[00:41:44] And so they won't make, they'll sit on the wire and they won't make a decision because they need more data. And I've, it's probably a flaw in my character, quite frankly, but I make decisions really fast, like really fast. And I've got like a 50, 50 chance on those being good decisions, but I make them fast. Like I don't reflect. I don't, I don't like, let me give you a little bit of 24 hours before I, let me think about it, do some research. No, I'm just going to make a decision.

[00:42:13] And again, I'll learn quickly. If that was a bad decision, I forgive myself pretty quickly. Like, oh yeah. And then do you pivot quickly too? A hundred percent. I will. That's perfect. That's all you got to do. Just don't be afraid of it. No, I, I've even told my sons, I'm like, if you don't make, you know, hundreds of bad decisions, then you're not trying hard enough. You're, you're playing it safe.

[00:42:40] And, and you know what, you're never going to be, you're not going to be, you're never going to get you to reach your full potential by playing it safe. You're going to have to gamble. You're going to have to try some things that are way outside your comfort zone. Absolutely. So who last question for me is that through your career, but most importantly right now with first advantage, what are the types of people that thrive around you? Like what are their personalities like, you know, do you like, cause I, I don't like people like, like me.

[00:43:10] So I'll just give you some context while I'm asking this question. In fact, I, I can't work with people like me. I like people like Ryan. And I like people like my wife. Obviously you're working well, so. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know what I'm saying? Like if I had another person that was like me, I'd probably, yeah, I'd probably quit. He makes the bad decisions and I pivot those back. You pivot them and get it going. That's what he's saying. There's a little truth in that, by the way. But, but.

[00:43:40] That's great. The thrive. But you know what? You know what makes it work. Right. And that's, that's where for the battle is knowing kind of where it fits. Who thrives around you? What type of personalities? What do you need? What do you need around you? Yeah. I found it's not necessarily about the, the type of person they are or how they approach. It's, it's the pace. The pace. Like I find it really important to pair yourself with someone who has a similar pace and then

[00:44:08] that will enable you to continue to kind of move things along at the, at the level that you intend. You could be the most intellectual person, super cerebral and have all the best ideas. But like, to your point, if you have analysis paralysis or you can't kind of make that decision, then it's, it's going to add friction to kind of the team dynamic and the culture. Sure. So I found that to be a really important aspect when hiring is to make sure the people that

[00:44:35] you're bringing in have a similar pace to the way the company is paced and for where you want the company to be paced too. Right. So a lot of people are like, oh, it's so slow. I got to move faster. Right. So then don't, don't hire the people that are comfortable with slow. Hire the ones that want to move faster because then eventually all ships will rise. I lied and said that was my last question. So is that some of your upbringing? Is, is that something, is that a Philly thing or is that your dealings with wall street and dealing with the East coast?

[00:45:05] It could be both. I think it could also be region for sure. Yeah. But it's just where, where I've been comfortable most of my career. And I call these folks, the folks that thrive here are the, the GSDers, the, the get stuff done. Whereas it's progress over perfection. Like you're just always moving forward. You have to really kind of push yourself to kind of always just go to that next step.

[00:45:32] Even if it doesn't look exactly the way it should be, but the intentions are there and you're kind of going in the right direction. It works. There's something regionality in there too. Cause I grew up in the South and things are just slower. Like it's just, and it's even like I traveled all central and South America and it's very similar to the deep South. Like just, you don't get to business quickly. You talk about family, you talk about everything.

[00:45:57] Like a dinner might be six hours and you might not talk about business for 15 minutes at the very end. So like, I've struggled historically, I've struggled with the East coast because they don't even want like, they want to get to the point, you know, you know, the bit they want to get to the point quick. Cause they want to get onto the next thing. I don't know what you're talking about. Exactly. Would you shut up and make your point already? Exactly. That's what she's saying. She's like, all right, all right. Get it. I get it. Let's go. But I really love. We're at the top of the hour.

[00:46:27] Yeah. I love it because I mean, first of all, that's real. I mean, somebody that's going to thrive around you needs to have that pace. So thank you so much. First of all, thank you. We do have people from the South on the team, by the way. And Europe also has a very slow pace, but the people who are in the team have the same pace. They have the same drive. They have the same ambition.

[00:46:51] And so, but they come at solving the problem completely different, which also makes it super fun. Yeah. Thank you. Ryan, you have anything else? Sorry. No, Joel. Thank you very much. This has been a wonderful conversation. Absolutely. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate it. Thank you guys. Thank you for carving out time for us. And thanks to the audience. We'll see you next time.