Quentin Cloarec, Co-founder & CEO at Trees Engineering, on Why the Future of Talent Doesn't Need Staffing Firms

[00:00:05] Alright man, so listen for you listeners out there, Quentin when did we first meet by the way? Six years ago? It was pre-COVID. Five years ago. Five years ago. About five years ago right? So and this was when, so you know we met through Trees obviously, but so for you listeners out there, so you've been like basically telling me, hey look here, look here, look here for AI.

[00:00:30] And I'm like, okay, I'm trying Quentin, I don't really get it, come just talk on the pod because you've been like way ahead of this and I'd say, if you're in inning five, we're on like inning negative three in most cases. So context listeners, I was like Quentin, please just hop on. With that said, do you want to give a quick kind of overview Quentin on like your whole journey?

[00:00:53] Because I think also part of this is like, you're not a CS PhD in data science, right? Like give us your background and then give us the journey to trees and then the journey from trees to now. Okay, okay, well first thank you. Okay, thank you Matthew. And you got cool glasses. So everyone watch the video because your glasses are sweet.

[00:01:18] Oh, thank you. So well, I'm French. I'm an engineer, energy science engineer in France. And I did all my career actually in the manpower industry supplying engineers talents on energy projects like multi billion nuclear plants or power plant projects.

[00:01:41] Oil and gas projects. And I built trees and I built trees in 2021, which was a, you know, the, the moment talent marketplace pop up everywhere, like you have Upwork, Fiverr. And I wanted to have mine, but using AI already to match a job description with a CV.

[00:02:04] So that was my idea at that time already. So we were already using AI at that time. And now it's been so yeah, five years. I've been working at improving trees. We had a lot of issues. But at that time already actually AI was AI. No one knew about AI at that time. They were like, why are you doing AI? Blah, blah, blah. What is it? At that time we were using Algolia. I don't know if you remember Algolia. It's still there, but it was super expensive.

[00:02:32] We used, we used, we had to use API call for the matching. It was super expensive. Like we were paying at some point 1000 euros per month. We were like a database of 10,000 people every time we were like, we were posting some jobs. It was super, super expensive. And then ChatGPT started. I gave it to all of my staff from day one. And I told them, guys, let's, let's use it because it's going to be the future.

[00:03:04] Many things happen. Many things happen. And basically what happened is just that I review all the processes of the company, change all the SOPs of the company by implementing AI on every processes. But when I talk about AI is, can be ChatGPT, sometimes can be AI agents, but I guess it will be a, we can talk about it later. What is an AI agent?

[00:03:34] And, and yeah, the journey is that we started as a talent marketplace. We have to move to manpower company because of our clients who just wanted that. And now actually I'm moving again. We are releasing a new AI agent that will do pre-qualification WhatsApp that will do the matching and the sourcing and the matching directly on our own database that we have to rebuild.

[00:03:57] I will explain that. And, and I'm launching a new company, TreezOS, which basically going to be specialized in AI transformation, specifically for company in the recruitment sphere, the recruitment industry of how to change processes, how to rebuild basically companies using AI and stop, stop doing,

[00:04:24] it's what I told to my staff, stop doing like mundane job, stop doing like job that is not made for us, for human. Yeah. So let's go, let's, so let's get very detailed about Treez. Um, so when we, when we met and, and listeners, uh, you're literally in Kuala Lumpur right now. So you're not in Paris or the U S right. So you're in what I would argue is like a highly, highly innovative because you have to environment.

[00:04:50] But so trees, you guys were literally just in the oil and gas sector, right? And were you only placing engineers in oil and gas or yeah, tell me more. No, no, no. It's energy. It's energy overall. Energy. Okay. We do, uh, we do solar, we can do nuclear. We do a sustainable, sustainable projects. We do water projects. Um, so we have done wind offshore, um, solar plants, data centers now, uh, because you know, in Malaysia,

[00:05:17] we have more and more data centers now everywhere, popping up everywhere in, in the south of Malaysia. Um, and it's kind of similar type of profile because it's like engineer going on site to commission projects. Gotcha. And then, uh, the, the individuals, was it always engineers or project managers or all? What, what about, tell me about the tech, the talent on the platform.

[00:05:43] No. So, you know, those types of, of, um, of projects, industrial projects, energy projects work on what we call EPC projects, which is engineering, procurement and construction. So the engineering parts, you have like, yes, all the engineers, uh, junior, senior, lead, head of departments, project engineering manager.

[00:06:03] And you have the designers as well, all the technicians, uh, but like we do like what the drafting, what we call the drafting, the plants, the 2D and 3D modelings. And then in the, on the procurement parts, you have buyers, uh, procurement people, you have, um, supply chain managers, you have, uh, expeditor. So those types of profile that will basically manage all the different subcontractor.

[00:06:31] That's the, I mean, the, that the EPC will use. So you need all those buyers and supply chain managers. And then on the construction parts, you have the construction commission installation. You have more like workers or you can have feeders, inspectors, supervisors, superintendents. So all the people that will work on sites, uh, engineer as well. Um, you were talking about then project managers.

[00:07:00] This one are more like the, at, um, um, projects, project sites. You are like the project manager. Uh, you have the construction managers or all the different managers of this, this different disciplines. Gotcha. And let's, um, so here's, so let me, let me throw one thing at you. Um, when I look at like, so I'm going to throw a massive question, which is going to be,

[00:07:22] why haven't both staffing firms, agencies, why haven't the traditional talent world been able to use AI? Right. So that's a question I want to just really, really grill into. And I want to look at it from both the, you're the executive in the staffing firm side, but then also you're the buyer having to decide who you really want to partner with, knowing that the decision you make today will probably force you like for the next five years, you'll be living with this decision.

[00:07:52] So, so that's the massive question is like, how come they haven't been able to keep up and innovate with AI? And then let me throw you my quick perspective and then very interested in yours. So when we look at the, the talent and we call it talent platforms now, Quentin, by the way, because we're like, if it's more than just an open marketplace that requires matching, we're calling it a platform. Cause I know that you have to do vetting and you have to help the client with scoping.

[00:08:17] And that's so much more than just like, here's a form that's going to match you with hundreds of cans. I know you're more than that. So my perspective though, is the traditional staffing and agency world. And this is typical innovators dilemma. They just have so much to lose when they look at AI. So for example, like if they lose their recruiters, well then how do they go tell their clients that they can still justify the massive margins that they have?

[00:08:44] Second thing, when they look at the type of talent that they have, they're usually built around long tenured placement fees and AI might create an environment where you only need that person for one day, or you're literally just working with that person's agent. So in my view, the traditional staffing agency world, they just have way too much to lose. Like at their core, AI might ruin what's been a good gig they've had for 50 plus years.

[00:09:13] Now, when I look at someone like you and most talent marketplaces and talent platforms, you have something to lose, but not as much as they do. Meaning you have way more to gain if you can get behind this. And I think that's what makes all the difference in why you've been AI native from the start. But so let's throw that question out there. Why do you think you guys have been so ahead of the staffing and agency world?

[00:09:42] That's, well, thank you for your question. That's, it's difficult to answer seriously. Why? Why other companies are not there yet? Why us, we started using AI. It was very personal for me who decided. I mean, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a CEO.

[00:10:11] I mean, I'm an entrepreneur before to be a CEO. I built a company. And I think in my position of being the CEO of a company, I had to make choices. And my choice, my choice is to be ahead of the competition.

[00:10:30] And if I think that AI can help us, you know, us, what we want is basically to place people. We want to place people. That's what we, we, we, that's what we want. So as soon as we are registered with our clients, we receive a requirement.

[00:10:57] If we would be well organized in a perfect world, we would have a database that would tell us exactly who is available on the market. And it's exactly actually your idea of the human cloud. A human cloud is basically, imagine everyone would be in this human cloud, cloud, sorry.

[00:11:21] And, and companies could just type, I'm looking for this type of people using API or whatever. Any people that would be any, any individual that is in this human cloud and that match with the request from the clients. The AI is saying, hey, Matt, there is this job here. Actually, it's close to, it's close to you.

[00:11:50] It's like just two kilometers away. And I think you match for whatever reason, because AI, you know, AI is not matching with keywords. People still think that AI is matching with keywords. No, AI doesn't need to know your, your position name. AI just need to understand what you are able to deliver or capable to deliver based on your experiences. So the position name doesn't mean anything.

[00:12:17] We are, so, so, I mean, in a perfect world, AI could solve this problem. The problem of, I need someone. Where is he? Where is this person? Now keep going with this thread. So, cause here's where there's honestly opens up question two, which is like, okay, what is AI actually doing? And here's one thing that you've been able to do, which, which is very unique, but we call this industry.

[00:12:46] We say that the premise around the match is actually been unfounded, largely a myth and more of a distraction than what's really happening. And here's what I mean by that. It is a match, but it's more of a managed service in that it's not as simple as looking for a developer. Here's developer go. Right. And it's on both sides. On the client side, it's, Hey, looking for AI developers. Okay.

[00:13:16] What do you mean by that? What's your budget? What are you looking to accomplish over the next six months? What can you afford to lose? What's the actual tech stack that you're working with today? And probably are going to work with tomorrow. And so on the client side, right? It's not as simple as just tell me what you need. It's like, we need to help you on that. So that's a managed service on the talent side, which is where you guys, from everything you've showed me, this is what's crazy to me is it's also not as simple as here's the person with the perfect resume. It is.

[00:13:45] Can you actually talk with this person? See if they're excited about this project. See if they're available. See what, when they say they've done this, have they actually done this? And this is where, you know, you guys have such a massive, massive opportunity because in the staffing, you know, in the traditional staffing company model, I think their biggest weakness is they don't keep the talent. Meaning they're just going to LinkedIn and various places and saying, Hey person, are you available?

[00:14:14] And they're playing a numbers game. You're not, you're actually vetting these people and you're the experts in the energy industry. And so, and I, and I, I don't want to assume Quinn, but I think you are placing multiple people, right? So you're also not just saying, Hey, company A, here's person A match. Then we're going to fuck off. You're saying person A, we really know this person. We're, you know, we're messaging them on WhatsApp. We know they worked well, seven different times with these types of companies.

[00:14:42] So all that to get into this dovetail of like, okay, what is AI really doing? And what you were talking about, I think it's very important to show how, well, it's enabling this match plus, which is it's starting to take over the managed service layer of this industry. Well, there is a, yeah, you're saying a lot of things. The technology is not anymore a problem.

[00:15:11] Technology is not ever anymore an issue. Us, my company is not placing enough people. No, for a reason why, because we, we are not registered everywhere. We don't have all the cash, the needed cash flow because we should not, not, not, uh, we should remember that our company is basically a head-in-chief company slash a bank.

[00:15:35] Uh, if a bank wants to actually revolute, you know what the revolute, revolute launched the EOR business recently. They're also smart. They're just now going to launch the matching. It's done. Um, no, what? No, clearly. No, my, my, um. What my company is doing, we, we, we could do better.

[00:15:58] And, and yes, every, I mean, every, all my competitors must start to use AI to basically revise, review their database because all is about database. All is about your CV. People have CV. They don't even use it. Um, with AI now you can, let's say you have a CV of 10,000 CV.

[00:16:21] You just launch an AI agent and your agent will tell you after one month, I talk with eight, eight, eight, 8,000 people out of those 8,000 people, 1,255, uh, are available right now. Uh, 2,500 are available in that time, that time. And it helps to better, better organize.

[00:16:49] So, I mean, sorry not to reply to your question because it's, yeah, technology is not anymore a problem. Uh, we could, it's really, I think a company, uh, choice. Yeah, go deeper into that. When you say it's not a problem, like what, what do you mean by that?

[00:17:09] And I'll, the only thing I'll throw out there is, um, there's, there's building, there's compiling, and there's actually working in production. And in my experience, this is where AI still is, is very, um, risk, risk worrisome.

[00:17:33] And what I mean by that is if you're in healthcare, if you have, you know, sensitive data, then I think your AI has to be very, very, very protected and insulated. Because I feel like, to your point, Quentin, what I do every day is we ship something in 48 hours, usually 24, but then the next 72 hours are just catching all the things that we didn't even expect to happen. And the only way we know that they happen is we have a very tight customer relationship.

[00:18:01] But if we were dealing with, like, healthcare or something that really was very consequential, we would, we'd be so fucked, Quentin. Meaning, like, we'd be built, we'd be using AI in a way that would be so irresponsible. No, no, so, um, you were talking about the matching in your, in your previous question. Um, matching a job description in a CV is not even a problem anymore. Uh, what, I mean, me now, you know what, I wasn't, uh, well, you know what I,

[00:18:30] suggest now, I suggest to have a CV of 100 pages. Because CVs are not being written, uh, um, uh, read by human anymore. Companies, a company who is, who is still hiring human to read a CV, they, they, they, they are just being their competitive delay. They have to use AI to first read the CV. So I now tell my, my, my, um, the people I coach, I told them,

[00:18:56] write a two human, two page CV for the human and the rest for the AI. Write everything. Uh, we don't care. It can be 100 page at the end of the day. It will still take one than once, less than one second for the AI to match you with job description. You have now like tools like, uh, SAP bought a very, they were very right. They, they bought a smart recruiters. Do you know smart recruiters? Tell me more about this.

[00:19:25] Cause, and, and mind you, I think AI recruiters are going to be the death of society. Um, but I'll get deeper into that, but tell me, tell me more. I disagree. I disagree. Now let's say companies looking for whatever profile. Um, let's say they receive 100 CVs. The beauty of AI is that those 100 CVs can be interviewed by an AI agent. It will not cost much.

[00:19:54] You, you can use some LA models. You can, each of those people can have a 15 minute interviews. It will cost 10 cents per people using a model like very cheap model, DeepSeq, DeepSeq MLM model. I mean, you can do anything now. You can do anything you want.

[00:20:16] Um, I think AI gonna, gonna, human gonna have actually to learn more about human skill, soft skill. Uh, it's not anymore what it's, if you just match a CV and job description, no, we don't care. Is, is, is, is, is your, your human, your, your, your personality can match with the, the project, with the project director, with the colleagues.

[00:20:46] Um, I still see, there is still too many, actually, uh, job description now on the market where 50% of the job can be done by, by an AI. You, you, the thing is we are going to a shift, which is so crazy. All my staff have a different job than one year ago. They are not doing the same job as before.

[00:21:11] And I told them, the only thing you have to do as a recruiter is not to source CV, is not to send email, is not to read at CV, is to build relationship. Yes. I think we're gonna, recruiters gonna become more like community managers. Who I know, you know? Which has massive implications though, because my take on this is from a recruiter's perspective, I think they have the hardest job in the world.

[00:21:41] And I actually think that recruiters are like real estate agents. What I mean by that is, have you had to buy a house, Quentin, in like the last five years? Okay, so I like, I will, I will go to the grave believing that a real estate agent, there's like low barriers to entry. Like anyone can be one, but it's so hard.

[00:22:03] And the reason I said is because our real estate agent will do so much work just to like behind the scenes, right? Just to get us a house. Now, if they had even 10 of us's, I just don't know how they're doing this all. And when we look at like a recruiter, I don't know the exact numbers, right? But I assume that recruiters are managing anywhere from what, 20 to 100 hiring managers at a time.

[00:22:30] And when I look at what AI does, it's placing more of a premium on that relationship that you're talking about. Now, put yourself in the shoes of the CEO of a staffing firm to hear that all of a sudden my throughput and productivity per recruiter is going to go down, right?

[00:22:50] Because what you're saying is now that recruiter should probably only work with like five to 10 people at a time because the time per person hiring manager is going to be so much higher. Like, am I totally wrong by calling that out? For me, it's going to be more interesting. Tell me more. They're going to spend less time on mundane work and more time on being a human.

[00:23:20] You know what I've done? I told all my staff to get this. What is that? It's like airports. I told them you should spend your time talking with our clients. What are they looking for? And with your talents, what do they want? Because if you still think that your job is too much a job description with your CV, you are getting wrong.

[00:23:50] I don't want you. The goal is to build relationship. That's the only thing now we have to do because all the rest can be done by an AI. Now, everything. With our new product, you're a recruiter. You talk with my AI agent and you say, I'm looking for this type of profile. I'm looking for, I mean, that's my job description.

[00:24:15] Our AI on WhatsApp, it's called Trilence, going to give you the top guys that you talked to in the past months. Because our AI agent is talking to all our candidates on a weekly basis or monthly basis. Just see how they are, how they're looking for a job. It's almost free.

[00:24:37] So now, why using, you know, when you say they have a complicated job, it's complicated actually for recruiters to tell them, keep on engaging with people to know if they are available and still interested and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Use an AI agent for that. Which, so here, so let me, so ease my concerns on this.

[00:25:02] This is my, my biggest, my biggest concern with, and I, and here's my, I'll start with the end first. My, my end belief of this is I believe that these specialized platforms are going to be the ones that end up winning

[00:25:23] for probably the next five to 15 years because they're the ones that will not be playing the financial spreadsheet game of managing the right recruiter to hiring manager relationship, thus giving a better service and being more specialized. That's my end game is where I believe this is where we're going to end up netting into. But here's the challenge that I have for you.

[00:25:48] If, if there's, there's a recruiters and then me as the person looking for the job, if I have my own agent, how the fuck, Quentin, do we not turn into this world where it's agents talking to agents and just over optimizing and then just turning into a blow up of, okay, I'm out. Right. And I'm, and I'm not going to even, I'm not going to even hire unless I can shake Quentin's hand

[00:26:17] and, and physically feel that his hand is not fried a cyborg. So how, how do we avoid this agent and agent world that just over optimizes? Wait, for what? For, for matching people? To help people find a job or what? Yes. Yes. And, and, and part of your, part of what you actually said before that to me,

[00:26:41] it was so spot on is like, yeah, probably most job descriptions are, I would argue a hundred percent of work can be done by, by AI right now. The question is how much time do you have to copy and paste in your, in your various terminals? Yeah. I think that our industry, the manpower industry, the, which is in reality, the, a service industry,

[00:27:11] a connection industry, an agent industry. We are just agents. We are an, an agent industry. We connect people. The, the, the, the company that will win will be the one that just, but that, that's, I say that because that's what I built. That I mean, that's what I believe in. The one that can win is the one who built the, this infrastructure layer, this human clouds, which is basically an

[00:27:40] infrastructure where your CVs, your, your profile is here, is live, is accessible, is on the cloud. We, we call it the energy human clouds, uh, to your children's and, and accessible. Why, why? That's, you know, when, when I first worked in this company, I was an engineer and I worked for

[00:28:08] this manpower company and I was, why do we even exist? Why? I don't really, why do we exist? And you know why? I think it's because, it's because recruitment departments are lazy. They are not working properly. Of course, there is regulation, blah, blah, blah. One of, one client told me, oh, but you know, we have this, we have to respect

[00:28:36] this regulation saying we cannot keep a CV two years. But I say, yes, but if you, if, if you contact this guy, it's fine. You can, you, if you, if you ask him to, if you just contact him, asking him to, or the, or her to, to, uh, to accept that you keep your CV for two more years, you can write. You say, oh yes. So I say, why you just don't use an AI agent then to ask the question? Send an email.

[00:29:04] I love framing it as like, why? We, we just, why do we, we, we should know. No, no. We have to reinvent ourself. Our industry, the one who will win will be the one who is capable. That's why me, I do it because I have a small company. I don't care. That's why I prefer to reinvent myself totally and build,

[00:29:28] and we build it already. The company that has the money and wants to do it, I really think we don't need, we, the human should just be there to build the relationship. That's it. But you don't need someone to connect. No, you don't need, if it's just a CV, no points, just go for the relationship. Go if you can really work together, human as a human, and let the AI do the, do whatever

[00:29:55] they want. It's better actually for us. It's better. It could, you know, the issue, yes, is orchestration, coordination. Human, we are in an industry of coordination and orchestration of people, but it's not even well properly organized. The best way to organize it properly, and I'm sorry to say it, is to be completely reinvented. We have to destroy our industry.

[00:30:24] That's, but to reinvent it. You know, a company, it's same with AI. A company has to revise their processes by breaking their process and rebuilding on the top of AI. Same with our industry. Why? Because we are a service industry. We are not a manual. We're not a human industry. We, we don't, we don't build things with our hands. We are a service industry. So every service industry will have

[00:30:49] to reinvent themselves. And the company that will win will be the one that will take the, the markets on those industries that will destroy it. And that's where we're going to have the huge, the, the, the big, the big top companies will be the one that's build this infrastructure, get the talents, use the AI, use the, the database properly, take care of the talents, build the relationship. You're seeing human, you're seeing human, but they will do a totally job. It will not be a proper

[00:31:17] recruiters reading CVs. No, it will be someone that loves to build a relationship. Someone who likes to talk, to get interested and will be able to sell a candidate or to, or to, you know, you know, prime of candidates when they got interview as we prepare them for interviews, not to be shy, you know, to, to, to, to, to present properly, to, to talk, to ask questions. What do I ask? Soft skill.

[00:31:43] Yeah. Yeah. I, listen, it makes a, it makes our life very easy. If we just say, Hey, you have to go on the human class, right? You, you have to adapt to, to having, having the, you know, what's funny is we, we actually get pitched a lot by others. They'll say things like, Oh, you guys are just building out the human layer to the agentic workforce. And I, I do firmly believe that. Um, I, I, I firmly believe it's not as hard, uh, from like the tech, the tech is easy. I think,

[00:32:13] um, I think the tech really all comes down to, we're just digitizing our us. Right. And like at the, at the most painful manual way, we're just building many websites for everyone. Um, if we were to make it as like boring manual, but still digital. But as you know, like now this has turned into, yes, I have a hundred page CV that needs to be LLM scrapable, um, and AEO optimized. But at the end

[00:32:41] of the day, it's like, we need to put our merit onto a digital platform in some capacity. And the world really runs by a database, right? And our industry has always just been facilitating that database of people. Um, and we've just been lucky that the tech hasn't been here in a way that it's easy. And so there's lots of room and lots of margin, right. For like a staffing firm and agencies and you name it.

[00:33:08] So listen, last question for you, Quinn, tell our listeners what you want them to do right now, throw them a challenge. And then obviously we're going to put your links up. So they go connect with you immediately, but tell them what you want them to do literally right now and throw a massive challenge in front of them. And, and by the way, like I haven't prepped you with any questions,

[00:33:35] which is the way it's supposed to be. Um, so thanks for, uh, not having time to prep on this. I have to launch a challenge. Yes. You have to tell them what to do right now. You can selfishly say, just go to our website. That's the, that's the G code. No, uh, apart from telling them to check my website, uh, treesOS.io and, uh, and if they are

[00:34:03] interested to check treelands.ai and no, the Bordi.ai, you know what the challenge go on Bordi.ai. Bordi.ai is, is I think, uh, the most achieved, uh, AI super connector agents that helps you to connect with anyone. It, the way you can talk with Bordi is amazing. And, and you just, you will

[00:34:28] just explain to Bordi what, who you are, what she wants. And the goal of Bordi will be to generally introduce you to someone to build relationship. So it will, it will, it will, it will propose you LinkedIn, some of people. So yeah, my challenge, go meet someone. If, if go talk, go meet someone

[00:34:52] you don't know by asking to an AI agent. That would, that would be my challenge. If you think, if you think AI agent is making us, is making you lazy and less human. Me, I think it's the opposite. AI agent is making you more human and use Bordi to check. Bordi.ai. I love that. All right, man, we'll put your links up and then Quentin, I'm sure you'll be on in the next, in the next six months. And we'll, we'll recap and say how much of what we talked about is real now. Uh, and we'll probably go, ah, 10%, you know, but we're going in the right way.

[00:35:22] But Quentin, thank you for hopping on my friend. Thank you, Matthew.