Most leaders who lose their edge still work hard. They log 60-hour weeks and sit through back-to-back meetings, and somewhere in there the judgment their job depends on starts wearing down.
Jared Quoyeser, co-founder and managing partner of the Louisiana Impact Fund, spent more than 20 years at Intel and is chair of Louisiana's largest private employer. His book, The Flow Multiplier, lays out the system he built after two decades of making calls where a bad one cost real money.
In this episode, he covers:
- How to find your own deep-work hours (his run from 4 to 11 a.m.) and tell your team exactly when and how you're reachable
- Why HR gets further with executives by pitching peak performance, and why the wellness pitch gets waved off
- What the "above the line" split means as AI takes over the messy middle of work, and why HR has to connect senior judgment to entry-level hires
Timestamps
[00:01:20] Why Jared calls himself a builder, not a babysitter, and how that thread runs from Intel to private equity
[00:03:23] The flow multiplier idea: high performers have plenty of discipline, and their work habits wear down their thinking
[00:06:23] Up at 4 a.m. and guarding 7 to 11 a.m. for critical strategy calls, plus how to find a window that fits you
[00:08:48] Shari's no-meeting Fridays and why she had to start blocking them three months out
[00:10:05] Why Jared dropped Friday afternoon meetings after shortchanging his one-on-ones 60 to 70 hours into the week
[00:11:31] Getting your boss on board: start the conversation, then come back with qualitative and quantitative results
[00:13:23] How HR should raise slipping decision quality with executives: lead with peak performance and skip the wellness framing
[00:15:55] The badge of honor of 16 back-to-back meetings a day, and the daily 1A, 1B, 1C priority list that replaces it
[00:21:28] Above-the-line and below-the-line leaders, and the careers built on "the biggest sand pile in the sandbox"
[00:24:07] HR as the connective tissue between senior leaders, middle managers, and entry-level employees working with AI
Guest Bio: Jared Quoyeser is a private equity leader, operator, and builder who has spent more than two decades leading in high-pressure environments where decisions carry real consequences. He is Co-Founder of the Louisiana Impact Fund, an operator-led lower-middle-market private equity platform, and Chair of Louisiana's largest private employer. He is the author of The Flow Multiplier (Entrepreneur Press, 2026), which introduces the PEAK Performance Framework — a structured system for how senior leaders sustain focus, judgment, and decision quality when the stakes are highest. Jared's central observation, formed across two decades of operating at scale: high-performing leaders do not fall short because they lack discipline. They struggle when the way they work degrades their ability to think clearly, focus, and make decisions. The Flow Multiplier is the system he built to solve that problem — and the system he now applies across LIF, its portfolio companies, and the LIF CxO Leadership Program.
Brought to You by Paylocity: Paylocity is the fastest growing unified platform for HR, Finance, and IT. Paylocity brings your people, processes, and data together in one place so HR leaders can spend less time managing systems and more time doing the work that actually moves their organizations forward. Learn more at paylocity.com
Keywords: flow multiplier, peak performance, decision quality, deep work, leadership burnout, executive productivity, no-meeting Fridays, priority setting, OKRs, Andy Grove, AI in the workforce, above-the-line leaders, entry-level talent development, knowledge transfer, HR strategy, private equity leadership, focus time, calendar management
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[00:00:01] You're listening to the HR Mixtape, a podcast for leaders who want to understand people, strengthen culture, and navigate change with clarity. Today's conversation starts now. Joining me today is Jared Koizer, co-founder and managing partner of the Louisiana Impact Fund, chair of Louisiana's largest private employer, and author of The Flow Multiplier.
[00:00:27] After two decades running companies where bad calls cost real money, he argues that high performers don't fail from a lack of discipline. And today he lays out what actually erodes their judgment. Zach Arend, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast with me today.
[00:00:53] Jared Koizer, Ph.D.: Great. Well, thank you for having me. I'm very much looking forward to the discussion and look forward to the production moving forward. So it'd be great. Zach Arend, Ph.D.: Yeah. You know, before we get into your book, I'd love for our listeners to get kind of a sense of your path. You know, you spent more than 20 years at Intel, ran healthcare and partner strategy, chaired a hospital board, and now you're running a private equity fund in Louisiana. What's kind of the thread that connected all of that?
[00:01:20] Jared Koizer, Ph.D.: I would say the connection between all those is I'm a builder. I'm not a babysitter. Jared Koizer, Ph.D.: If you're going to ask me to come in and to babysit something, it is not the sweet spot for me. You probably shouldn't be asking me to do that. It probably won't work out well type of thing.
[00:01:40] But if you're looking for someone to really get in from the ground floor, from whiteboard to building the organization, building the structure, really kind of take the organization to the next level, that's pretty much my sweet spot. And, you know, really what I find is I feel that's where I do my best work. And I think that's what you want from individuals is to find the sweet spot for them and for the company where they're doing their best work.
[00:02:08] Just amazing work as part of it, you know. And so, Shari, I think, you know, that's been really kind of the big thing is I've always raised my hand. I've always stepped out of the box. I've always said I'm a builder, not a babysitter. But if you're looking for something to start something kind of new and it's very strategic, you know, that's where, you know, I do my best work. And that's what I deliver back to the organization.
[00:02:29] So that's part of this. So there's no kind of, you know, going from health care to technology, you know, you know, being on the, you know, the board for multiple organizations. And now what we're doing, Louisiana Impact Fund, I would say really kind of the key kind of thread through that is that I'm a builder and really, you know, excited about the opportunities are really what we have in front of us. I love that. I think so many HR professionals probably sit in that builder mentality as well. Like we love to ask questions. We love to solve problems.
[00:02:59] You know, you, you and your time in your career and with the work that you've done with your book, you've kind of developed this concept called the flow multiplier. And it really kind of focuses on high performers not falling short because they lack discipline, right? They fall short because the way that they work wears down their thinking. I'd love for you to dig into that for us. Help us understand that concept a little more.
[00:03:23] Yeah, definitely. You know, Shari, you know, I think it's, you know, the, you know, the way that we work in, you know, I don't know if I'm an old sage, I'm maybe midpoint in my career in regards to this. But when I look back at kind of the, you know, past two decades of my career and I go, man, I wish I would have done it differently. You know, how do I structure, you know, really, you know, because I would say, you know, the grind, the work ethic, the hours was never a problem for me as part of it.
[00:03:49] I was always going to be focused on figuring out how I can, you know, outwork someone as part of this. But what I found is that where, I mean, going back to doing your best work and really the most impactful work for your organization, you know, your group, your team, your direct reports, I really had to step back and say, is that when do I bring my A game to the table?
[00:04:13] You know, being as part of this, because Shari, you know, this as a HR professional, people are usually really, you know, probably the most expensive asset, you know, within the company that you have. And really, you want to be able to set up the environment, set up the structure where they're bringing their A game, really kind of their next, you know, next level of talent, impact and results to the table.
[00:04:35] So really, I had to step back really from a reflective perspective and, you know, take on from where I was as an athlete, where I was my younger age, my younger time as, you know, rising, you know, within the organization. And really what I needed to change where I could bring peak performance on a weekly basis, monthly basis, quarterly basis, on a yearly basis.
[00:04:58] And then also too, Shari, it translated to, you know, you know, my life at home, you know, you know, with my family type of thing, you know, because I wasn't completely burnout, you know, disengaged where now I could balance it out. And I have a system in place where I was delivering peak performance at work. I was engaged in delivering peak performance in my family environment at home. So, which is a key thing for me.
[00:05:23] I'm always amazed at where we sit in our organization so many times around being organized. And I'm using your quotes on purpose because I think we have this mentality of like what being organized looks like. And I don't think it's the same for every person.
[00:05:42] And I guess my next question really lands on because it's not the same for every person, tackling this, like taking that first step to take a step back and go, okay, what, what, where do I need to start? Like, what's your advice there? Because for so many people, that starting point could look different. Yeah, definitely. So, Shari, you know, people in multiple conversations with direct boards, people that I'm working with, mentorships across the board.
[00:06:08] And I always tell people is what I do and what I'm going to communicate is kind of is really a structure and a framework that can be applied. But also it needs to be applied so that you personally can do your, your best work. You know, think about how do you structure? How do you, you know, really customize for that and really put it in place? You know, so, Sherry, let me give you an example. So I'm an early morning person. So I am up at 4 a.m. That's where I get going. I'm super excited.
[00:06:38] And I do my best work really in those morning hours, a little bit before. And then also I would say from that 7 a.m. to about 11 a.m. time frame, that's where I feel that, hey, A game, doing my deepest work, you know, making really decisions, critical strategy decisions with clarity. I feel that that's my sweet spot. Now, Shari, you may say, hey, I am not an early morning person. I've got to structure it in the afternoon.
[00:07:06] And so how can I really kind of put that framework in place where, guess what? I can deliver my best work in the afternoon where I feel that I can do my deep work in the afternoon. And Shari, there may be some people, guess what? Their deep work is from 7 to 10 at night, 7 to 11 at night. And you just got to figure out how really what works for you. And that also works for kind of your daily flow and your office flow, your kind of your group flow and also your family flow too.
[00:07:35] So it's not saying, hey, hey, Jared gets up at 4 a.m. So guess what? I have to get up at 4 a.m. and this is what I need to do. No, it does not. Here's the fundamental framework of it and apply it to where you see that actually you can get the best out of it. And then also to Sherry, it's, you know, like you're not myopically N minus one just individually. You're working within the team. How can you structure it within your team environment? How can you apply it within your group environment?
[00:08:03] And then also with that is really having those discussions so you can communicate with other people in the organization saying, hey, this is how I feel that I do my best work and this is how I'm going to structure it. And, you know, sometimes, you know, people go, hey, like I couldn't get in touch with you during this time and everything. But have those communications regards to, hey, I respond quick on text, later on email, time thing.
[00:08:27] Really, what is the service level agreement of kind of really what my communication is and really have that communication with you, you know, really within your team. But going back to kind of as part of this, it's not a one size fits all as part of this. Here's a framework and it needs to be kind of structured so that you can get the best out of it as part of this. When people are thinking through that framework, you know what? Let me back up.
[00:08:52] One thing that I did, and I probably did this now, I want to say 18 months ago, I booked out No Meeting Fridays for myself. And it took months. Like I had actually started, you know, three months from where I was at so that my calendar actually had that time that I could, you know, use that way. But that was like one thing that I figured out on how to start to give myself that space. What if you're in an environment? You know, I'm lucky. I have the support of my boss.
[00:09:21] She totally is behind that mentality and that space that I need to kind of think through the week and catch up on stuff. Now, everybody has that luxury, you know. So how do they start to communicate, hey, it's good for us to slow down for a minute and spend some time on organization and thinking through leveraging our skill sets and our time and our productivity so that we can stay in the flow state for as long as we can. Because that's going to get us the most work done.
[00:09:49] How do we start to, you know, get other people to buy into that so that we have the time we need to do this work? Yeah, Sherry. So I'm a big fan of what you talk about on the Friday. That was one of the first things that I implemented was I was not going to schedule any meetings on Friday afternoon and really have those things. And really was an eye awakening for me is because I wasn't really bringing my A game on that Friday afternoon because there was a lot of, you know, we're already 60, 70 hours into the week travel across the board.
[00:10:20] And, you know, a lot of those times I would, you know, I would have one-on-ones with individuals, you know, on my team and, you know, they, you know, they really wanted to get a lot out of those meetings. And Sherry, I wasn't bringing what I should have to those meetings. I wasn't meeting the expectations of those individuals in those meetings because I was, you know, I was done at that point. I was focused on other things. I was completely, you know, 60, 70 hours from the week and I wasn't, you know, there from there.
[00:10:49] So, again, I'm a big fan of that Friday perspective because a lot of times we're already, you know, like it's like you're not bringing your A game at that point. But going back to it, when you're making this shift, it's just open dialogue and discussion and transparent discussion. You know, saying, hey, these are the group dynamics. This is what we need to work with because we have a team meeting on Monday. We have a group meeting on Wednesday. We have a customer meeting on this perspective. But it's with your, you know, with your manager.
[00:11:16] And then also if you have direct reports saying, hey, this is how I feel that I can bring peak performance to the group and to the team moving forward. And this is how I'm going to structure my day, my week, my month and my quarter. And just have that open dialogue and discussion. And, you know, sometimes you may get some feedback from your boss saying, hey, this is great, but I need to make sure that, hey, you can be reached during this time or making sure you do this.
[00:11:42] So it's all about, you know, that open dialogue and discussion. And really what I love about it is to have that open dialogue and discussion, but then come back to the individuals who you've had that discussion with and saying, hey, this is the qualitative and quantitative metrics and measures of what I saw that came from it from this shift. And once you show that, hey, you're measuring kind of what you're doing and structuring and putting in place, I think people get behind it and they really understand.
[00:12:12] And then all of a sudden, Sherry, you know, they come back to you and go, how'd you do that? How do you structure this? How do you make sure that you limit the notifications of, you know, Slack, IM, WhatsApp, email, texting, people coming across the board? Or how do you manage that type of thing? And then all of a sudden it becomes like a group dialogue. Well, and that dialogue needs to happen, especially, you know, as I think about my HR friends who are like, yeah, but I get interrupted all day long and I have to. You don't.
[00:12:42] Like we've created that environment for a good reason, right? We want a white glove approach. We want to show up for people. It comes from a totally good place. But it does limit our ability to be strategic and stay in that flow state and really think about what we need to do. I want to flip the perspective for a second and ask you this question. As an HR professional who understands this, right, and I'm watching my leaders and I start to see like a degrading in their decision quality.
[00:13:10] What are some of the early signs, the ones that show up maybe months before burnout shows up, that we as professionals can really help our leaders maybe see something that they're not seeing and help them take the step back? Yeah, Shari, you know, just in my personal perspective, I wouldn't lead with something fuzzy and kind of warm. Give me a hug. Hey, it's all about wellness, well-being type of thing, you know, because, you know, you'll get like probably a different response type of thing.
[00:13:38] I think if you leave from an HR perspective is, hey, we want to be able to structure our environment for peak performance from, you know, bringing your A game that's really provides, you know, you can position it as I'm just kind of thinking through this, that really provides a competitive edge for your organization and company moving forward.
[00:13:58] Because, Sherry, you know, at the end of the day, your C-suite, your executive team is probably one of the most high-priced HR, you know, investments that you have. So you want to be able to, you know, be able to structure that environment. So and structure what's, you know, let's say how they're working and provide the foundation so that they can deliver peak performance. They can deliver that competitive edge, those types of things. I think that's how I would lead from it.
[00:14:26] I've seen executives, oh, here's another wellness thing. I'm not going to meditation. I'm not doing yoga, you know, that type of thing. But I would lead from a perspective of saying, hey, these are the pillars and foundational elements that, hey, we could work together that could lead to a higher level of peak performance where you're delivering a higher level back to the organization moving forward. And then also, you know, you probably get, you know, a little bit more kind of connection, you know, from the, you know, let's say from the executive team.
[00:14:56] Well, for sure. If you can anchor it in, you know, the what's in it for me from an ROI perspective, right? I mean, then that's the reality, right? You know, leaders are in a spot where they're either, you know, making money for their shareholders or for their organization or reinvesting that even if you're in a nonprofit, right? There's a lot on their mind. You know, and so many times I think not just execs, but leaders in general have this kind of like badge of honor, like, oh, my calendar is so busy.
[00:15:23] And, you know, I'm the first person in and the last person to leave. It's like, cool, you're slammed. But like, what impact is that actually having on the work? Could you be more productive if you were in six hours a day and taking the time to find peace elsewhere?
[00:15:43] Yeah, Sherry, I would say I think a lot of people really and really how I see this, there's really going to be a subset of leaders that are going to be above the line leaders and below the line leaders moving forward. And I think that you nailed it. You know, I think a lot of people have that badge of honors. I had eight, I had 16 back-to-back 30-minute meetings for five days this week and everything. And it's like, that's their badge of honor. That's what they did. They did 16 30-minute meetings for five days straight.
[00:16:13] Yeah, that's part of it. But really, what did you do? What did you deliver for the organization? What did you deliver for your team? What did you deliver for your group? Those, you know, those things. And I think, you know, sometimes, you know, the, you know, individuals get wrapped up around an activity and busy work and not delivering really what you need to do. But I, like, I'm always, you know, and I think there's been a lot of people, they talk about signal and noise. You know, what is signal?
[00:16:41] What is the true things that you need to pay attention to? And what are the areas of noise within your, you know, let's say your area of responsibility that, hey, it's just noise, but it really doesn't, you know, have a huge impact on what you're trying to achieve. But, Sherry, at the end of the day, I had to, from my personal perspective, N-1 is to really get very, very ruthless in regards to my priorities.
[00:17:05] And it wasn't just on a quarterly basis or yearly basis, but it was a daily basis. It was a weekly basis. And really, I came together as what is my priority, 1A, 1B, and 1C that needs to get accomplished today that's going to affect the organization with the greatest impact moving forward. So those were, you know, those things as that ruthless and really preparing with intent going into the day. What is 1A? What is 1B?
[00:17:34] What is 1C that would need to get accomplished and really move forward from there? And then also, too, Sherry, you know, I come from Intel and, you know, our, you know, one of the foremost, you know, respected managers in the world was Andy Grove. And he really set up a high-performance operation, you know, management culture with measure what matters, you know, organization key results, those things. If you're able to set up that infrastructure and guess what? Then guess what?
[00:18:01] That 1A, 1B, and 1C starts to become, you know, a little bit clearer, you know, that, hey, this is what we need to do. And this is what we need to achieve as we accelerate the organization strategy movement forward. So being very, very ruthless in regards to it. And, you know, Sherry, at the end of the day, guess what? Some days, all hell break's loose. Monday morning, and you may have the most well-intentioned plan whatsoever. And next thing you know, you're spending three days because we had a crisis, an issue, and we needed to address it. And guess what?
[00:18:30] You just got to take those days and move on. And you had to address it, and you had to address it. You had to focus on it. And guess what? It is what it is. I'm not saying every day is going to be perfect and say you can't address it. You need to focus 1A, 1B, 1C. But those days do happen. But you have to have the flexibility, you know, for that kind of moving forward. Well, especially if you have that mentality where you're thinking in high prioritization, you have to shift and prioritize whatever that crisis is, right? Like, we all did that during COVID. We had to figure it out.
[00:19:00] But you've got a really good list. So you know, once crisis is over, what am I going back to? Maybe I can't get to B and C today. But you know what? I cannot get half of 1A. And that's really productive. I also love that you shared three things. Like, I know that our brains work in a way where we're kind of attracted to, like, threes and fives. That's a really great way to tackle your day. What are the three things?
[00:19:28] The three things that we end up doing is we're like, oh, yeah, I got this thing done, this activity. Check off the box. But it didn't impact the company at all. It was just kind of this activity. How do you see, and I feel like every conversation I'm having now on the podcast, I have to ask an AI question because I think it's, you know, permeating everything right now. How do you see that changing? I'll ask you twofold. For the good and helping us be more focused.
[00:19:56] And for the bad, when I think of, you know, all the conversations we're having about work slop coming out of, you know, AI and the use of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So from my perspective and how AI is going to impact, you know, when you look at, there is going to be a separation of individuals within the workforce. And there's going to be a separation. The individuals who, you know, let's say embrace and set up a system of, you know, AI is a component of that system where AI is doing kind of the messy middle stuff.
[00:20:24] You know, the stuff kind of, you know, the really, you know, tactical types of things, the research and, you know, things, PowerPoint presentations, development, and those things. And what that does, it frees up individuals to really be able to think at a higher level. You know, really kind of think at the strategic, critical thinking level of, guess what?
[00:20:44] I don't need to spend my time in here, but now I can devote my time more on doing deeper work, doing, harnessing really what the human brain can really do instead of the kind of the tedious stuff. To really kind of think of that strategic, critical thinking that really goes up and to the right. So that's where I call individuals that are above the line individuals. You know, they can think at that high level. They're going to utilize, you know, the capabilities and the elements that AI is going to deliver to them so they don't have to spend that busy work.
[00:21:13] Which has been, you know, really fantastic for our work in establishing a private equity fund. Because we're a tech forward and the organization design is different today than what it was five years ago and really has changed it in our workflows. But, you know, Sherry, there's going to be a, you know, there is a reshaping of the organization. There's a reshaping of individuals now.
[00:21:34] There has been a subset of individuals that have built amazing careers on doing busy work and establishing the biggest sand pile in the sandbox. So, and guess what? All that stuff is going to go away because, you know, there's going to be process automation through AI and those types of functions are going to go away.
[00:21:55] And they're going to be below the line leaders, you know, and there's going to be a completely separation with above the line leaders going up and to the right and below the line leaders going down, down and to the right, I guess, also too. But one's going up, one's going down. And so that's where I feel where this is heading.
[00:22:13] And there's going to be a separation of individuals really that above the line, business leaders, managers, you know, just even individuals who do not have direct reports, but they're leaders within the organization, but they're taking advantage of that. And they can think at a higher level moving forward. So I think that's where this is moving forward.
[00:22:32] You know, when we look at the AI capabilities, and I see it as human plus AI, and I know there's been a lot of topic and discussion in regards to what's happening this past, you know, weeks and, you know, moving forward. But individuals who be able to establish a system, being able to establish a system where it's human and AI, where the individual can really get all the best of what the human brain is bringing to the table, and you're separating yourself up and to the right.
[00:23:00] Those are the individuals who are really going to excel. With all of the teams that you've worked with, and you've managed hundreds of people, I think about this entry level group that's coming in and has use of this AI technology, right? And I don't think it's a crotch. I really don't. I don't like that word. I think it's a tool that is, you know, amplifying what we can do.
[00:23:25] But you said it yourself is there's a set of people right now that have got the learned experiential knowledge, especially in HR, of cutting our teeth to some really hard things so that we know when we're working with these tools, yeah, that's not quite right. Like that output wasn't quite right. I need to adjust that or you pulled the wrong resource.
[00:23:48] How are we making sure that our entry level employees can get the knowledge that we have, having kind of lived without AI? And maybe this is like a boomer sentence. I'm not a boomer. I'm a Gen X. But maybe that's what I'm saying. Like, how are we going to make sure that we don't lose that? I think it's all part of the organization strategy. And I think that's where HR can really play a vital role in this.
[00:24:14] You know, they've got to be able to, you know, because they're looking, you know, individuals within an organization or, you know, let's say they're looking at their business unit, their organization, their results, those types of things. I think HR leaders have the purview of the whole organization and what's going on within the whole organization. So I think individuals and leaders within HR need to, you know, understand this, understand what's going on in reshaping of the organization, the skill sets and those types of things.
[00:24:42] But they have to be able to provide the connective tissue from the individuals that have really the deep working knowledge for the newer generation kind of moving forward. So I think that is an opportunity for HR leadership saying, hey, we are, we absolutely know we need to reshape the organization.
[00:25:02] But how are we going to provide that connective tissue between senior leaders, middle managers into entry level people so they understand, hey, how the organization works, what is important to really have that human plus AI component. So, you know, Sherry, I think this is an excellent opportunity for HR to lead in this space because they have a purview of the whole organization and not just myopically, just within a group or a team, those types of things.
[00:25:30] Well, and that language, connective tissue, I think is such a good word for it in a good way to think about it so that you're not, you're not stepping on toes, right? You're really starting to kind of build organically if you kind of think about connective tissue. So, you know, as we wrap up our conversation, I'd love to hear from you, you know, what's that one piece of advice that you hope leaders can walk away from our discussion with and really use to make an impact?
[00:25:55] I think it's an exciting opportunity, you know, moving forward, you know, and, you know, like I know there's a ton of uncertainty out there. You know, what is going to be the impact of AI, how it's going to, you know, evolve within your individual workflow, your team workflows and your organizational workflows? My guidance and, you know, coaching would be to embrace it.
[00:26:16] And, you know, because how can you be part of the driver of reshaping kind of the workflow and the organization and how you work moving forward instead of being reactive from this? You know, so being on kind of really kind of the cutting edge. I also, you know, really what I tell people all the time is that there's going to be, you know, moving forward, there's going to be above the line individuals and below the line individuals as part of this.
[00:26:42] Individuals who are able to embrace to be able to set up a system, you know, really drive a system and productivity and harness everything that AI can deliver to the table. I think those are the individuals that are really going to separate themselves, you know, moving forward. So from my perspective, just be a lifelong learner, embrace, you know, continue that kind of skill set evolution, you know, moving forward because it's going to continue to be there and moving forward.
[00:27:08] And you've got to be able to figure out how you can, you know, have an impact in this world, you know, utilizing those technologies. Such great advice, Jared. And thanks for taking time today to sit and have this chat. It was really enlightening and good to hear that my No Meeting Fridays are a good approach. So I appreciate your time. All right. Thank you, Jared. I appreciate it. And have a good one.
[00:27:43] Thanks for tuning in to the HR Mixtape. Like, share, review and subscribe to support the show and help more people discover these conversations. Until next time, keep the conversation going. Bye.
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