Why Qualified Candidates Get Missed

[00:00:01] The world of work is changing. AI, automation, and technology are reshaping how we find jobs, build careers, and connect. But behind every resume and career transition is a human story. And the mental and emotional impact is real. This is Ghosted by the Machine. Welcome to Ghosted by the Machine. If you're looking for a job right now, you've probably heard all the advice.

[00:00:28] Change your resume, add more keywords, beat the ATS, apply faster, customize everything, use AI, and don't use too much AI. Well, somehow, after doing all of that, a lot of really qualified people are still sitting there wondering why they aren't getting an interview. So today, I wanted to look at the hiring market from both sides. Joining me is Katrina Kibben, a professional resume writer and career strategist who works directly with job seekers and helps them position themselves to actually get interviews.

[00:00:58] Also, I have Gary Shifflett, a talent acquisition professional, recruiter, and co-host of the Talent Revolution, who works with companies trying to find and hire the right people. So we'll have the candidate side, the recruiting side, and probably plenty we disagree with along the way. But, hey, we're going to have a lot of fun today. Melissa, Joe, welcome to Ghosted by the Machine. Thank you. I really appreciate it, Mark. And, gosh, it's really a privilege to be on. Well, thank you.

[00:01:27] And, Joe, we go way back. We've done the shows together. We do. So I'm glad to see you here also. So let's start with a big picture. Thanks for having me. Let's start with a big picture. Candidates are being told that companies are hiring. But at the same time, I'm talking to people who applied to hundreds of jobs and barely heard anything back. Melissa, you're talking directly with job seekers every day. What are you hearing right now? The same thing.

[00:01:51] The average job seeker I speak to has been looking for at least six months, has applied to, on average, 300, 400 jobs. They're getting few to no interviews. Yet, oddly, and simultaneously, you see these articles in the newspapers where employers are saying there's no qualified talent in the U.S., so that's why we've got to have all these H-1B programs.

[00:02:17] And, really, I hear the same almost verbatim phrases on rotation. I can't get interviews, and I know I'm qualified for these jobs. I don't understand. It's like my resume just stopped working, and it's never failed me before. Or the ones who are getting interviews either can't get past maybe the screening round or the first interview with the hiring manager. Or they almost always make it to the final round.

[00:02:46] You know, they're in the top three, but they never get the offer. Or, and this is honestly the most disturbing, I keep getting unsolicited messages and emails from recruiters for jobs. Every time I send my resume, they tell me it failed multiple ATS algorithms, and then tell me they can't submit my resume for consideration until I talk to a separate ATS optimization specialist,

[00:03:12] give them $300 to optimize my resume, and after that, they disappear. And this new resume, who this expert supposedly created, doesn't get interviews either. Joe, what are you seeing from your side of the table? So, there's several things to unpack there, and I agree with you on some of those, and Melissa. I mean, there's some scams out there. I've seen them myself, and everyone needs to be aware of those. Obviously, you shouldn't have to do those things.

[00:03:41] On the employer side and the recruiting side, everyone, there are jobs, and people are getting hired, but they are very particular. There's very, a lot of specifics that they're looking for, and I would say employers are being very downright specific and very detailed in what they're looking for. That variation and that potential gap is so narrow now that you need to fit into this,

[00:04:10] these quasi boxes to fit into those things. So, let's, if you use an example of, if you're a program manager, well, a program manager fundamentally could do similar things, but they're looking for someone with this particular experience, right? Whether it's a product, a system, a customer, that side of it. So, you know, you're getting potentially a lot of folks that are applying for that, because fundamentally, they potentially could fit that,

[00:04:38] but it doesn't fit the specific criteria into what they're looking for. And the companies are broadcasting it to cast a little bit wider net to see who's interested and apply, but when you narrow it down, it's not exactly where they're looking for. And that's just an example. So, it really goes down to, you know, the recruiting side. It's who are they? What have they done? What are they working on?

[00:05:03] And what is that hiring manager specifically looking for to fit that criteria, right? And a lot of that... Applicants don't realize. And a lot of it's not, it's on the job description, but it's not fully on the job description, right? I mean, all those, and I know, you know, I'm sure job descriptions is going to come up in the conversation here, but it goes to those things. And that's the tough part, right? And, you know, we are looking at candidates. We are reviewing those applicants.

[00:05:31] And we're just honing in to see who's the right fit for what our customer is looking for. Yeah. Yeah. And Joe, to put a finer point on that, and I'm speaking as a former purchasing agent, job descriptions today read to me like requests for proposal, or requests for quotation, that I used to put together and send on behalf of General Motors.

[00:05:59] And, but at, these are my skills. These are all the things I did in my job. Here's some prestigious companies that I work for hire me. That's not going to get an interview. And that's a big paradigm shift that... If it's a recruiter that really knows what they're doing, right? You see the titles, you see the companies, and it's like, great,

[00:06:26] but it's what did they actually do inside of those things, right? It's like when I've trained recruiters, the question I ask, they come back with a candidate, what did you do? And it's hard as a job seeker to explain what they do. And as a recruiter, you're trying to define what did they do. And your resume has to showcase what did you do? And all those have to line up, right? Exactly. And people still hold on to the idea that it's somehow cheating to have somebody else write your resume for you.

[00:06:55] I mean, where would Coca-Cola be if the guy who came up with the original formula had decided it would be cheating to hire an outside agency to do the PR and the advertising, right? And that's where they fall down is they think, I'm the one who can best tell my story. No, you really can't because you don't know how to sell yourself. Even salespeople don't know how to sell themselves. The old saying is what a shoemaker's kids have no shoes, right?

[00:07:24] So it's hard to explain and sell yourself in those things. It really is, right? And for every profession and every person, so having somebody help write your resume is awesome. And I think it can help. But again, it comes back to what is the client and the customer looking for? What is that role? And does that align to what the company is doing? And so you have to look at who are you applying to do your products

[00:07:50] and experience line up to what their product mixes are and be able to really go in after those things for that application. Switching industries is really tough for everybody, right? If you're flipping from, you know, I'm in Michigan, so a lot of folks are automotive and they want to get into other industries. It's really tough from an application. And that's where you have to really network and all this other stuff. Here in Michigan, if you're going from automotive to healthcare and you've got those transferable skills,

[00:08:19] how are you going to get those transferable skills across the finish line to get that interview? And that leads me... That's one of my niches. To my next question. Is doing that translation. Melissa, you work with people who have rewritten their resumes over and over again. Some people have five, ten versions, even dozens of versions. Fifty. I've got a buddy that's out in California that's done 6,000 applications. I don't even know how many resumes he's done in his time. But at what point... How many interviews has he gotten?

[00:08:48] Probably about 40 out of 6,000. And he's been ghosted numerous times. At what point is the problem no longer the resume? The point at which the problem is no longer the resume is when you've hit your 50th application, between your 50th and 100th application, with your own work doing everything yourself.

[00:09:15] And you are not getting at least one to two interviews per 10 to 20 applications. Quit chasing the resume. Quit chasing only the coaching. You've got to find somebody who can take you end to end. Right? From application to offer, they start getting interviews. And it very often is with the very first batch of applications they send out.

[00:09:43] Because it involves a paradigm shift or five. But if they're open and willing to make that paradigm shift, they start interviewing. And then they go on with interview coaching. It's all one. To interview for the offers. But I would say if you... Like I said, baseline, if you get to 50 or 100 and you've been doing everything yourself and you've been trying to follow the advice online and you are not getting traction,

[00:10:09] that's the time to call in a lifeline. Get some help. What do you think is going wrong, though, when it's not the resume? I first noticed this phenomenon in 2022 where people were coming to me and saying, I don't understand this. I've always been able to put my resume out. If it was in a couple of weeks, I'm interviewing again. And it's been three months, five months, hundreds of applications.

[00:10:39] For some reason, my resume stopped working. I don't understand why. And I like rabbit holes. So I've spent three years in a rabbit hole trying to figure this out. And I think my theory is that the rise of skills-based hiring, which is a three-word way to explain the change in job postings to almost like an RFQ with very typical, very strict

[00:11:09] specifications, actually change how employers identify the word qualified. Because for decades, it's been qualified as the sum total of the applicant's preferred qualifications, what they know they're good at, their pedigree. You know, like say if somebody in tech was one of the original Googlers, that's a big deal, right? And that's no longer the case.

[00:11:37] So you've got a job posting that in the required competencies and preferred qualifications contains hard and soft skills. And you know this, Joe. And that is what recruiters in HR do their first sense check. When they see the resume, there's a skills section in the resume. And what I've figured out, again, hypothesize, and since people are getting interviews, I think I'm on the right track.

[00:12:07] They skim that skills section and they are expecting that skills section to be primarily what's baked into the job posting. And instead, applicants who don't realize anything about these changes that have happened are using the same strategies that I learned in 1990 at Alma College. Focus, you know, brainstorm what you like doing, what you think you're good at, what you get good reviews on.

[00:12:36] That goes in your skills section. And so there's a mismatch right from the very beginning. And then they waste all this time treating the experience section of their resume like it's an SEO document because of all the fallacies out there surrounding how ATS works. And I know we're going to talk about that. I understand where you're going with that. But I guess the biggest thing is, Joe, I'm going to ask you this question.

[00:13:05] How does someone who really is qualified still get missed? They've got the resume. They have the background. They have all the information there. Is that resume the only way they're going to get in that door? Is there another way? You know, what is getting missed? Well, I mean, just applying, you know, you're going to get missed by, I hate to say it, but timing, right, does play into it, guys. I mean, you know, ideally as fun reviewing resumes, it should be first come, first serve, right?

[00:13:34] As you're sifting through them, fair, you know, fair and square that way. So if you're getting 300 applicants, you know, and you find a good subset within the first hundred, 200 to 300 may get missed, right? Right, right. I mean, you know, that's one piece of it, which is unfortunate, but it's also a time and capacity piece. Real quick, do you see more applicants per job these days? It depends on the job right now. Okay. So in my current world, I'm not.

[00:14:03] In certain roles, yes. Like right now, I would say IT and maybe some HR functions right now are a little bit depleted in jobs. So there's an increase in fluctuation. In some of the automotive engineering roles, no, I'm actually seeing less applicants. And there's where I have to go out and directly recruit and headhunt for those types of positions because I'm looking for types of aspects.

[00:14:28] So people get missed by, you know, timing, but also you're scanning and reviewing a resume of an applicant. Do they have these experiences and capabilities for what the role is in that side of it? So a little bit on the Melissa side, I don't necessarily go right to the skills because, you know, again, a tool or a skill can be, you know, if you don't have Windows and you have Apple, great. You know what I mean? That's easy, right? For example.

[00:14:57] But, you know, I'm looking at, you know, what's the role they've been in currently and then in the past, what's that product mix? And, you know, do they have the fundamentals for that in the right level that's going to fit for what I'm looking for? And then it's like, yes, great. They're on my list to probably message or respond to until you get a subset of, okay, this is a, you know, you kind of narrow it down.

[00:15:23] If you got a hundred, you're going through, okay, here's yes, yes, no, yes, maybes, whatever. And then you go, okay, I got another set. If you're getting that many applicants and then who's the best first six or 10 that I want to reach out to and then the next ones, right? So you're also getting missed by there. If in a case where there's a lot of applicants, there could be just someone a little bit stronger in certain aspects, right? So there's a couple of ways they could get missed. Sure. Yeah.

[00:15:52] And Joe, I hear you talking about tech competencies, software and stuff. I'm, when I refer to competencies, I'm talking about the hard and soft skills more than I am tech, you know? So like if they're applying to program manager job, obviously program management needs to be in that skills section. If the, if the job posting lists agile, it needs to be in the skills section, you know?

[00:16:18] And what happens is people are so used to focusing on what they believe their strongest qualifications are. And their eyes makes them in their eyes makes them the strongest candidate that they wind up with a skewed lens that they look at the posting through.

[00:16:37] In fact, I've got a word, whereas it sounds like a word sign activity on my site that shows exactly this, where you just instinctively and automatically find what's in the example, put together my skills based key skills list instead of the words that are actually in the posting that if they were reflected would get you hired. And one of the first things I do is I'll take a qualifications based skills list, the hard

[00:17:07] and soft skills from at least three postings that the person normally applies to and make that the backbone of the skills list. That alone with no other changes to the resume start is what starts getting people interviews. And so that's, that's where my theory that the posting keywords are being focused on in the the wrong spot in the resume comes into play.

[00:17:33] And it's really about not proving your qualifications, but building a business case. I usually explain to people I talk to is your resume needs to make you look like as close as possible to the person the hiring manager had in mind when they constructed that job posting. So that involves, again, the skills in the posting.

[00:17:59] And rather than just listing your job history in the experience section, you're building a business case. So you need to show the value you bring to the table. You need to show what you're capable of. You know, that's scope related. What budget size can you handle? How many products can you handle simultaneously? Have you worked globally? And how good you are at what you do? That's achievements. Most people think achievements are tasks. One perfect example is this guy who had two bullets, very task driven.

[00:18:29] He managed a cross-functional team processes. And I can't remember what the other one was verbatim. But what he was really trying to say is, first of all, he came into a very dysfunctional situation, implemented daily standup meetings, you know, so Agile 098. And as a result just of that, on-time milestone delivery improved 50%.

[00:18:56] And on-time delivery, I don't remember the exact number, but it was a similar significant number. That's how you communicate an achievement. It's ultimately a bullet that says, okay, this is how I solved a problem. These were the results. And that's how you build a business case. So, Joe, when you're looking through resumes, what's going to make you stop? What's going to make you say, hey, I need to talk to this person?

[00:19:23] So, it gets into, I mean, I look at the roles, the titles, the companies, and then it gets into the scope, right? Because the titles, there's multiple different titles for different jobs. So, do they relate to what that is, to the companies, to the industries? And then diving into the specifics of, you know, if it's a global role, are they working globally? Or if it's a sales role, have they worked with these types of customers, right?

[00:19:49] Highlighting all those different particulars, right, are what I look for. And then I want to know, have they done something close and similar or right on what they're doing in a competitive market, in a competitive size? You know, for me, those skills and those soft skills and things are kind of, I take it for granted that if they're in a sales world, they know how to sell in there, that side of it.

[00:20:15] And that's part of my phone screen to assess, are they the right matching cultural and skills for the particular role that fit in that side of it? I look for the other side of, do they have a profile that is aligned with what my customer is looking for? And then you go into specifics, you look at tenure, you look at other things. But there's a story behind every person, right? So, you can't take that into, that's not a default to say no.

[00:20:43] You're kind of building that whole thing. And then it's, yes, I like them. They're on my list. I see people who only put soft skills in, like relationship building and collaboration. My main focus is getting those hard quantifiable skills that a performance report can be based on. Right. Yeah. That would be like two thirds of the list. Delivered, you know, five new customers, which generated, you know, 100 million in sales, right? That's a skill.

[00:21:14] Yeah, that's an achievement. Right. Right. So, there's a phrase job seekers are saying that I hear all the time. You have to beat the ATS. And sometimes people talk about the ATS like it's a mysterious robot sitting somewhere deciding everybody's future. And don't shake your head, Melissa. When you're writing a resume, who are you really writing it for? Are you writing it for the ATS to get through the cheese grater, the recruiter, the hiring manager, or all three? And I'll start with you, Joe.

[00:21:43] How much power does the ATS actually have? So, the ATS is only as good as you program it, to be honest. Right. So, as you program it. So, you can set them up with particulars for qualifications and then get dispositioned based on the answers. Right. So, do you have a bachelor's degree? Do you have X amount of experience? Do you have these criterias?

[00:22:11] And then you can disposition it if you set up your system that way. Quick question. Other places are. Quick question. I'm going to jump in right here because you and I talked about this on your podcast. You don't have a bachelor's degree, but you've got 20 years of experience. Depends on how it's programmed, Mark. Right. How it's programmed. And, you know, bachelor's degree or related experience, then you can play that. Right. Yeah. But it's hard to do that.

[00:22:38] Therefore, you can't necessarily program that in the back end because it's kind of absolute. So, do you have a bachelor's degree or not? It's like a yes or no. Right. Or it's a free form. So, that potentially, if you're opening it up to not just a bachelor's degree and having experience, it's not programmed that way. That I know of unless there's some new algorithms and AI that's going to play into it.

[00:23:00] But unless you program it, all the resumes come in and then there's a recruiter or HR or whoever, a hiring manager reviewing those applicants that's going to be playing into that.

[00:23:11] But there's a lot of ATSs that can help assess and predict maybe fit or, you know, I hate saying scoring, but kind of like a scoring mechanisms where they're not saying that anybody's not qualified, but there's a higher probability of someone being aligned to the role off the job description. And that's why the job description plays into a fact of it. But here's the thing, guys. Hiring managers are using AI to write job descriptions.

[00:23:39] Candidates are using AI to write resumes. And then if your AI is also reviewing some of the applicants and playing that, who is the real person, right? I mean, it gets really. And then there's I know there's others. It's what are the AI questions that you're going to ask an interview on these things? So all this AI stuff fundamentally comes down to who's the person? What have they done? And do they align to what you're looking for? That's where I go with it. Right.

[00:24:06] And Joe, a term I hear often for some of the things you mentioned, like bachelor's degree, yes or no, five to eight years of experience, yes or no. A term I hear for that often is a knockout question. Would that be a good? Okay. Yeah. And because, again, if you can deliver some of those. So, therefore, if you're getting 500 applicants and you require a degree of some sort and if they don't, it just helps to sift through the resumes.

[00:24:35] And I think it's important for people to understand that's not an algorithm. That's not a bot. That's a yes, no binary. And would you say that you as a recruiter perhaps tend to evaluate resumes a little bit differently than somebody who is in human resources employed by the company? So, I've done both. I've been third party and corporate.

[00:25:02] I don't change the way I look at resumes by my job in that aspect, right? It's I have a customer and I call even internally or if I'm third party, they're still a customer. What are they looking for? And evaluate the resume based on that in those things. Okay. Yeah. Just curious and briefly because there's this battle royale that goes on on LinkedIn where people talk about the bots in the shredder and everything else.

[00:25:29] And there will be high level recruiters, HR executives, you know, down to, you know, professional level. I mean, just dying on the hill that this is not how it works, that you are not being automatically rejected by algorithms. And they'll explain it as a file cabinet with search capabilities.

[00:25:48] So, the meaning the recruiter internal or third party uses the list of skills that the hiring manager provided more or less as search terms to pull up the resumes that align most strongly with the posting. How much truth is in that? So, everything starts with the job description, right?

[00:26:12] And then, obviously, your intake or strategy session you have with that hiring leader to understand the role, which obviously, whatever they're telling you there should be related onto the description. Therefore, applicants are getting the best capability of it. But, yeah, so if you're, you know, you're trying to match that as best as possible.

[00:26:33] And the ATS is, unless you program it or you have an ATS with capability that is helping determine those higher probability of a candidate aligning to that role, you know, then that's where it's going to be. I don't want to say, I hate saying force rank either, but ranked into those things to be able to look at probability. And I've disproved that probability with certain companies before as well. So, it's not always correct in my opinion.

[00:27:01] But, yeah, you're aligning that. Even if I'm doing a search, right? If I'm proactively headhunting somebody, what is the manager telling me? And I'm going to whatever tool I want of choice, putting in those filters and then looking for those experiences and capabilities to align to that requirements. So, yeah. I think the point to tease out is that's you, the human being, doing that.

[00:27:31] Not an algorithm. I think that's important for people to understand. Well, there's algorithms and AI that can have. Human in the loop, if you will. Perfect. That's a good example because there is. Always a human in the loop. Capabilities now out there that I've been in, I've seen and used. And I also heard others where you're using some AI to help do the sourcing. But somebody still has to review it. Somebody has to input it. Somebody still has to review it.

[00:28:00] And somebody still has to talk to those candidates, in my opinion, as a human, to evaluate where they fit and align to those things. But I know there's some that are bots into those things, which are really, again, particular. I've seen the use cases for them. But yeah, human led, human in the loop, Melissa, that is exactly. I've always seen it that way. Because the human is also the person making that description. So another thing, Jeff. To some point. Right. Right.

[00:28:26] Either a human, the leadership is giving him, this is what we need. This is what we're looking for. These are the criteria I'm looking for. Put it together. Put it through the ATS. And let's see what we get. I just shortened that up really quick. Another thing job seekers hear is that every resume needs to be customized for every single job. And so if somebody is applying for 50 to 100 positions, that's a job in itself. So Melissa, this is your world.

[00:28:56] How much customization do people really need to be doing? People put way too much time into customizing. Very briefly, when I write a resume, the only part of ATS I write the resume for is optimal parsing. So I literally create a separate layout that the client uses to upload to the job description. It doesn't even use tabs. It's spaces or hard returns.

[00:29:23] And clients who use that come back and say, oh my gosh, all the right stuff is going into the right boxes now. And then there's a separate nicely formatted one. They'll have some color. Won't be heavily, won't be overly graphic. That's the one they use for interviews. The rest of the resume, so the hiring manager can go more in depth. Now, in terms of customization, take 30 to 45 minutes per application to tailor their resume.

[00:29:52] Most of that time is focused on the skills section. They don't need a completely different resume. I build them a master resume that is designed from, first of all, intake forms I've developed that help me fully capture the value they bring to the table, their capabilities, the scope they can handle, and achievement stories. And I also get three sample postings that are typical of what they apply to.

[00:30:22] I mine those postings to understand which hard skills and soft skills appear in all of the postings. That becomes their master skills section. And then the rest of the resume is written almost exclusively from the information the client puts into the... Job description. Intake form. Well, the intake form. Okay. That I ask because the old resume isn't getting interviews, right?

[00:30:52] So no level of just rewriting the old resume, putting lipstick on a pig, if you will, is going to make it start getting interviews. So most of the time, a resume for me is like buying a piece of property, completely scraping whatever's on it off, and building a new house.

[00:31:12] And then when they go to tailor it, I've actually built, used agentic AI to build a tailoring tool that doesn't tap into any large language model, anything like that. It just is the client's resume against the post. And it tells the client which skills to change in the skills section based on what's embedded in the posting they're applying to. And I'd say 90% of the change happens in the skills section.

[00:31:40] There might be one or two tweets in the personal summary or maybe the most recent job. And that's it.

[00:32:28] So Joe, from your side, can you tell when someone has basically copied the job description, stuffed all those keywords into their resume? I mean, you can a little bit. I mean, obviously, you're reading it and it's like, oh, look, this word and this word, it all picks up all the different times. But yeah, you can definitely see that. And just to back up for a second, I do agree. I think people are way too many customizing their resumes too much. I think, you know, the format you're talking about, Melissa, sounds great to be able to have a core and all those things.

[00:32:57] And there is a little bit of customization or specifics to different roles because it's hard to put everything in there. And literally, I had someone yesterday did a phone screen and it's like, you know what? I don't I know you do these things that we've talked about it, but it doesn't show there. So, hey, what do you think? And then they do a little quick update. Right. But yeah, but I got separate resumes for each role because everything too general is another issue. Exactly.

[00:33:27] So does that help them or hurt them, Joe? Well, I mean, you have to have a good general resume as a as a catch all right that you're good piece. And then I always tell folks that you are going to have a couple versions of your resume that play into it, especially depends on the roles and the levels. And some people have capabilities to sway one side or the other, depending on their job. So you're going to want to highlight those things. You need that. So they got to be mindful of it.

[00:33:55] And but the other part is, you know, I'm hoping recruiters are really understanding the jobs so they can really understand what these candidates are doing at these other roles. And there's an implied they should be doing these things. So it's really that alignment and then verification when you're having that conversation and doing those phone screens. Right. Yeah. And that's actually a concern I have, Joe, is the possibility that some HR and recruiters is speculation, obviously.

[00:34:25] A hundred percent. They don't really understand the job as much as they do. And so they mainly rely on that list that the hiring manager gives them, which is why I'm so focused on. You got to have the posting keywords in the list. And if I can, with springboard a bit off the point you just made, I view resumes like arrows, meaning they have to aim toward a specific type of job.

[00:34:51] So whatever that job type is, let's say it's a sales related job, right? Everything in there has to be within the same skills wheelhouse. So like you can be sales, you can be customer experience, you can be customer satisfaction, you can be business development. That's all one resume. But then say you're also interested in underwater basket weaving. You have to have a separate underwater basket weaving resume.

[00:35:18] You can't put that in the, yeah, you can't put that in the same resume as the sales stuff. And so when there are, quote unquote, different versions of resumes, they're aimed different directions. Yes, correct. And then they tailor to that exact type of job. So we obviously have to talk about AI since everybody's using it. You know, resumes, cover letters, LinkedIn profiles, interview prep.

[00:35:47] I mean, I interviewed for a job a few months ago and, you know, it's like, oh, I can do my own prep for it. I get any questions that they were going to ask and how I was going to answer, put my talking points together. It helps. I mean, AI helps. But a lot of the stuff looks the same to me and the content looks the same. So, Melissa, how should job seekers use AI without losing their personality and their own story?

[00:36:10] Well, the first thing they need to do is stop using generative AI and stop using the specific looking but actually vague prompts that they think are helping them tailor their resume to a specific job. It is interesting, though. I love to stop doing that or did stop doing that.

[00:36:34] But when you go into LinkedIn and there'd be five or six posts every hour saying, hey, I can help you find your next job. These are the prompts you need to ask chat GPT or for your cloud. This is an LinkedIn would have a class that you could go to. It infuriates me to see those because they're misleading. So, here's the thing. And actually, I wrote a white paper on this. I've got two white papers on my website.

[00:37:02] So, when somebody is using chat GPT or cloud or whatever your favorite large language model is, you have to understand garbage in, garbage out still exists. And everybody using those databases has a resume just like yours that doesn't match specifications for the jobs you want and isn't getting interviews.

[00:37:30] And when you put those prompts in, we'll just use chat GPT because what most people refer to, chat GPT looks, okay, let's get some infrastructure architect resumes. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's good. This was recent, right? And they're all broken resumes. And then there may or may not be a specific job description. Excuse me, when you say broken resume. Yeah, what does a broken resume mean? A broken resume is a resume that does not get interviews.

[00:37:59] How would we know that? I mean, if that's what's coming to us through AI, we're looking at it going, hey, I got this perfect one for marketing and communications. This is what I'm looking for. This is my resume and I'm going to fit it in there. It's broken. So, I shouldn't even think about using AI.

[00:38:16] Well, you have to, the answer is agentic AI that doesn't base its answers on honestly what's a poisoned well filled with resumes that also are not getting interviews, that also are getting, you know, that are put in by people who are also applying to hundreds of jobs without getting interviews.

[00:38:42] And just saying, make this fit for an infrastructure architect job without necessarily putting in a specific job description. What you basically get is it pulls, you know, kind of like a well drink. Everything's dumped in there. And it pulls from all that and it more or less is like taking every color in a kit of paints and blending it together and expecting it to be anything but yucky brow. It just doesn't. It can't distinguish you.

[00:39:12] The only way that can happen is in tandem with a real career professional, human in the loop, right? Not somebody who woke up on Saturday and decided resumes would be a great side gig, quick way to make some extra money. And agentic AI that compares that professionally written resume to a specific job posting. That's part of my secret sauce. And the same is true for the templates and the AI builder sites.

[00:39:41] I mean, most of those are developed by serial entrepreneurs or graphic designers. Point being, none of these people have ever actually helped somebody get a job. So why, you know, it's, I really wish my industry was regulated, to be honest. We're getting into my huge soapbox here. How should job seekers use AI without losing their personality? Because we're all going to, they're all going to use it.

[00:40:10] It's, it's, it's not, it's not going away. Right. Joe, Joe, how should they? I'm not suggesting it go away. Well, no, I'm not saying you should, but, or anybody should, it's not going to go away. How, how should we use it without losing who we are and, and, and telling our own story? Is there a way of. It'll be a little short on this one. And I say it's a guide, right? It's a guide. You use it, you, you pull in information and it's like, it's like rewriting your email for you, right? Hey, rewrite this. And then you still want to tweak it.

[00:40:40] It gets you 80, 85% there. And then you're making it, whether it's your interview prep, your resume. Rough content only. Exactly. I think this core goes back to, and everyone needs to get the fundamentally of share the resume with others. What do you think? What do you see? Right. Whether it's a professional resume writer, a recruiter friend, an HR friend, an engineering or business leader, get the real feedback. Interview prep. Talk. Do it in front of the mirror, the old school way. Right. Yeah. Practice.

[00:41:09] Like people have to be able to tell your story. Right. And I know the biggest challenge is getting over the hump of getting the interview. But then once you have that conversation, you've got to be able to sell yourself. You've got to be able to explain it and answer the questions that are being asked to be able to articulate those things to whomever the first one is, second, third or whatever it is. So nothing, AI won't help you tell that story because you still have to articulate it. You still have to share that.

[00:41:38] Your resume helps you, is one tool to help you get in the door. And then you have to be able to then highlight it and share it. So use AI to get that stepping stone, to get this thought starter. Right. Get out of that writer's block and get a view. But use your peers, use your friends. And I always use this and, you know, I go back to the comment I made. What do you do? Do it like you're explaining it to your grandmother or your parents that don't understand it.

[00:42:07] Because that's how you do that. It's so AI is not going away. It's all going to help us in many different roles in many different ways. You just can't. You have to be able to trust, but check and verify right with it. Sure. Can you tell that it's been an AI resume? And does it really matter if someone used AI to help write their resume? Everybody's used AI to write their resume in some form or fashion. Like, I mean, it is what it is.

[00:42:35] But you've got to remember, you've got to defend what's on your resume. So you better understand what is written on there. Because if you're submitting that resume, they can ask you a question about any of those details. And if you can't articulate that or answer it, guess what? The door is right there. And so, again, you know, it's like rewriting an email. Do you know that it's an email written by AI? You don't know. But, you know, is that the words? And is that how you speak?

[00:43:04] And is that real accomplishments? Again, I don't care if it's written by AI as long as it's you. And that is a trap people fall into. They assume that what AI gives them is final polished copy. It never is. And circling to your specific question, how do people use AI to make themselves stand out? First thing they need to do is stop following those lists of prompts. And it's as basic as, here's my resume. Here's a job I want to apply to.

[00:43:34] Where do I need to adjust my resume to align with the job requirements? That's it. And that will give you much more accurate results. I would add in the company or the division. I'm just going very, very, very, very, very basic. But yes, absolutely. Adding in the company, the division, all that helps as well, for sure. So, Joe, let's talk about job descriptions. Companies are looking for Superman.

[00:44:04] And, you know, 10 years experience, 20 different skills, three different jobs rolled into one. And I see a lot of that with marketing communications and how they've piled everything together. Just crammed it all in. Said, we need 10 years experience, but you got to get social media. You got to do sales. You got to know CRM. You have to know this. Three different jobs, all rolled into one. How much of the hiring problem starts with the job description itself? I mean, there's usually a key to it, right? There's usually, here's the basics. Here's the laundry list that I want.

[00:44:34] And here's the three, two, whatever the number of key things that they need to have these things. And hopefully you're writing them. Here's the must haves. Here's the required. And here's the nice to haves. And you got to go after those. So, but everything starts with the job description, right? I mean, because that's how you're putting it in AI. Say, do I fit or help me write a description or help me do these things and that side of it. So the job descriptions are key for all of that.

[00:45:01] And I would say most hiring managers have never been trained to write a job description. Right. So, you know, it's an art that's not, you know, professional. It's not done very well. And so it's frustrating for everybody. They're letters to Santa Claus. Yeah, they are. It's the laundry list. And, you know, you try to tone them down. But there's usually always a subset of here's the two, three, four things that I'd have to have, Joe, in my requirements.

[00:45:30] And the rest are all nice to haves. So, Melissa, when someone comes to you and says, hey, I can do this job, but I only meet about 70% of what they're asking for. What do you tell them? Should they still apply? Yes, they should. Because for a couple of reasons. First of all, Joe nailed it with his statement that not every single item in the posting is required. There are required competencies.

[00:45:58] There are preferred competencies. Required education, preferred education. My general rule of thumb with a client is, okay, let's take a look at the required qualification bullets. Do you have direct or indirect experience in at least 70% of these? Yes. Great. Now, let's look at the preferred qualifications. How much direct or indirect experience do you have in these? Gosh, most of them. Okay.

[00:46:28] Then apply for the freaking job. Quit expecting yourself to have to meet 100% of the requirements. Also, clients are woefully unaware of how much indirect experience does count. And a lot of what I do is translating that indirect experience to show how it really does equate to what's being asked for in the post.

[00:46:54] So, obviously, I can't have a show called Ghosted by the Machine without talking about ghosting. And Joe, if somebody has actually interviewed with a company, what responsibility does that company or recruiter have to close the loop? Even if it's simply, hey, we went with somebody else. Yeah. So, I mean, in my opinion, if you actually interviewed with the manager, I owe you a phone call. Right? I mean, you've taken time.

[00:47:22] You know, if they've just applied, unfortunately, there's a time and period you can't call everyone to say, hey, you're not qualified. They're dispossioned in an email. If I phone screened them, you know, depending on where and what they've done, you know, it's a phone call or an email. I mean, if you've talked to the company, you should get some type of not a canned message, but something a little bit more specific saying, hey, unfortunately, we decided to move with someone else.

[00:47:47] If you haven't spoken to anybody, I hate to say it, guys, but unfortunately, there's dispositioning in emails with templates that go through. But if you've definitely gone through the gamut, I owe you a phone call. And those phone calls are horrible and crappy that I have to tell them no. And they may not like that phone call at that very moment, but hopefully they respect that there was a phone call and a conversation that's been had. Well, it'd be nice if all recruiters in HR had that ethic.

[00:48:17] A lot don't. They don't. It's hard. So here's the picture that everyone has to also understand. And I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Most recruiters are dealing with anywhere between 10 to 20 to maybe 30 requisitions. And all those requisitions have multiple candidates and multiple applications and all those different managers in all different stages. So you can hopefully can manifest going, wow, look at what's going on and all these things that are happening. And you're trying to coordinate that.

[00:48:46] But, again, the candidate experience is key because it does go back to that reputation. It goes back to my reputation as a recruiter, right? Going, I want that candidate to refer their friend or their friend or say, hey, you know what? I know I didn't get the job, but it was a great company. Those all things matter. And your reputation is king and to those are queen. You know, it matters because that's my brand and that my personality. So I hope that they have that.

[00:49:15] And I think there's some that don't, clearly. And there's a lot that do. But it's also the timely manner. But I also say candidates also have to follow up, too. They can't always expect us. It's like if you haven't heard anything in three to five days, message us, call us, email us, right? And we can do a quick thing. And so it's a two-way street, you know, but recruiters have to say, do what they say they're going to do as well. And I always do that with, hey, listen, give me. And I've done that just a little ago. Listen, it's going to be two weeks.

[00:49:45] If you don't hear from me, it's okay. I'm telling you it's going to be two weeks, right? And set those expectations and have those conversations. Yeah. And make sure that you get back with them in two weeks. Yeah, I do. And that's my responsibility. I know you do. But there's a lot that don't because then something else is going to happen. But you have to have that mechanism and that piece because you're going to get known if you ghost too many people. It's like you get ghosted.

[00:50:11] I mean, I have a couple of companies when I was looking for jobs, which is shocking, dealing directly with the CHRO. I got ghosted. And it's a shame. I'm not going to call the company out, but it's like it's a big company. And I'm like, that's really disappointing. And there's probably about eight websites now that have all popped up in the last few months with ghosted.work, ghosted.data, where you can go anonymously post about. Tell your story.

[00:50:41] Tell your story. Tell your story. Post about the job and what you had to go through, how you were ghosted. And those are just coming up. They're popping up daily. It used to be Glassdoor. And the reputation of these companies is going to suffer. So, Melissa, you're working with people who might already be frustrated after months of looking. What do you tell them? Or, you know, what does that silence do to those clients of yours or those people?

[00:51:09] Let's start with this. This has been reported on. More than 700,000 people between May and June simply gave up trying to find a word. And that's a travesty because there are jobs. There are qualified candidates.

[00:51:28] This disconnect between employer expectations and what applicants think employers want to see is what I believe drives most of not getting interviews. That said, most of the people I speak to are demoralized. They're in a state of learned helplessness. There have been some people I've worked with who initially were so distraught they couldn't get out of bed.

[00:51:56] And we'd be doing coaching. They'd be in bed. And I just keep working with them. They're convinced they're no longer of any value to society. They're stooping to entry-level jobs, taking huge cuts in pay. And the thing is, guys, most people are underpaid to begin with. Another thing that most of my clients enjoy when they get that job is a pay increase that averages $25,000 to $50,000. Because I do salary research. I tell them, this is what you're worth.

[00:52:23] But the thing is, that all happens if I can even get people talk to me. There's another thing going on that we really haven't danced around. And that is the transnational ID theft ring that is trafficking in resumes. That's where you get the fake recruiters that send you to the ATS optimizers. And the fake resume writers who work in tandem with the fake recruiters. And it's not a conspiracy theory. You can go online.

[00:52:50] You can see where the Department of Justice has indicted people, has prosecuted people, has put them in jail. And it still happens because it's transnational. It's run at state level by a bad actor. And they are ultimately trying to and succeeding in getting jobs at American companies.

[00:53:10] But at the same time, they are driving because they spam the application process like scalpers hoover up all the tickets to a popular concert. They make it, you know, they overwhelm the hiring system.

[00:53:27] And so people are used to, again, because of misinformation that's out there, people have come to believe that anybody who's a resume writer must automatically be a scammer. So a lot of times I can't even get people to respond to me because they're so jaded and so discouraged.

[00:53:51] And they, you know, this group of influencers will often get people believing that only someone who has experience using ATS is possibly capable of writing a resume. But when I do get them to talk to me, that's what I hear most often. I am tears because a man can no longer support his wife and children. Worries, you know, people who are about to lose their homes or have lost their homes. Their cars have been repossessed.

[00:54:19] I happen to try to reach out to somebody because there are some things I will do if somebody's been out of work for over a year. I will help them with a skills overhaul and an edit for free. Try to reach out to one guy. And unfortunately, it was bad timing. Because he had lost, just lost his home and he had to leave this morning.

[00:54:43] I can tell you my, and I, Joe knows my background and what I had to go through for many, many months. It's just, we could expound on this all day. There's just so many bots and people out there prying and praying. So much advice online. Apply within the first 24 hours. Keep your resume to one page. Never use two pages. Use more keywords. Don't use too many keywords. Message the hiring manager. Don't bother the hiring manager.

[00:55:12] Everybody apparently has a secret formula. So, Melissa, what resume or job search advice do you wish people would just stop repeating? Let's try to keep this short on this one. But, you know, what should people stop repeating? Okay. First of all, they need, for the love of all this fair and good, they need to stop applying through job boards. Especially easy apply.

[00:55:40] No, I was told I should do that every time. I know. I know. But that's where most of the scam jobs are. What you need to do is remember, and people have forgotten this. If a job is posted on LinkedIn or posted on Glassdoor or posted on Indeed, it's also posted on the careers page of the employer's website. Or usually the third-party recruiter's website.

[00:56:10] The first thing you do is look that up on the employer website. If you find it, that increases the odds it's a real job. There are some employers, and shame on them, who will put a job out there they never intend to fill. They're just gauging interest. And they've admit, I've seen articles where they admit that. But that's your first step. And then you apply through the employer's website. You do not get any advantage whatsoever applying through a job board.

[00:56:36] Secondly, and Joe, you mentioned this earlier, stop treating your resume like just a document, like a typing job that is secretarial work. Your resume is just as important to your life and your livelihood as your passport, your driver's license, your birth certificate, anything like that. Because no matter how good your network is,

[00:57:02] that resume is what's going to get you into the room and into the process where you transition from candidate to employee. So quit looking for the cheapest deal or free. And treat your career strategy and the documents that make it happen as a life investment, just like you treat it if you went to college, just like you did college, or any professional certifications.

[00:57:28] And in terms of real professionals, and I don't understand why this is not wide or known. For 40 years, even though my industry is not regulated, there have been professional organizations that hold their members to codes of ethics, standards, issue credentials in resume writing

[00:57:50] and coaching. And it is my firm belief that the only resume writers or coaches or whatever you should be working with are people who are members of and hold active credentials with one of these organizations. And Mark, I can give you a list of those. Every single one, their website has find a professional. Until this industry is regulated somehow, and I honestly am a huge advocate for that,

[00:58:20] that's the only way to know that you're not going to be ripped off. In terms of one-page resumes, students and new grads, everyone else except a high-level executive, you're probably going to be two pages. Also, finally, there is no longer just these four FOTs that work with ATS. Back when it was originally developed, yeah, that was true. Now, as long as it's a typical business font, you can use it.

[00:58:48] Still keep in mind readability, stuff like that. And please stop obsessing over format and layout. That is what people waste the most time on. There's only two industries where format really matters in terms of don't do anything fancy, and that's legal and financial. Otherwise, you can have color or not. You can have two different fonts in the resume or not.

[00:59:12] The only thing you want to make sure you don't do is go buy a template from Canva or Etsy or something like that, because those are graphic designers, and text boxes are treated by the ATS as graphics, even though they have words in them. So all those little things that people don't realize are shooting themselves in the foot. So, Joe, what advice do you see online that makes you say this is not how recruiting actually works?

[00:59:42] I don't know. Maybe I'll have to answer that question a little different way, Mark, of recruiters aren't your enemy. Right. And recruiters can help you. You know, I would just say trust to verify who you're working with. The third-party world is great, but they really need to know who you are and what they're doing, and you need to test them that they actually know their clients. And you just don't want to give your information to everybody, but you need to work, especially at all levels and all roles.

[01:00:10] There's recruiters for every profession and every function and every level. You know, you should be working with a few of them, if not a couple. You need to keep out there and keep networking, even at all levels, to keep driving those things. And, you know, I think I want to go back and touch on that two-page resume. I mean, one page is, like you said, Melissa, on entry level, sure. But there's also a lot of good projects, depending on the types of functions. But two-page resumes are great.

[01:00:38] I mean, and you need it for the experience that people have. And there's no reasons why you can't get down to that. But, and I just want to stress for everyone, keep networking. I mean, do. Do, not just because they were a VP somewhere, it could mean something else. I think that you can button up the interview process. I mean, they could be shorter and they could be faster, if you can. That's something that employers can help hone in on. I think we go back to what we just talked about.

[01:01:08] Recruiters could follow up and have that communication and create that good experience for everyone. And then I think honest networking, there's a, I hate saying hidden job market, but there's a lot of roles that don't get posted. And that's where recruiters can help you. And that's where your network can help you and drive through those things. So you have to do all of it. And job searching is a roller coaster. It's ups and downs. You'll get interviews. You'll get traction. Then it'll peep down into a valley. And then you got to go back up.

[01:01:36] So, you know, don't beat yourself up over it. It's also your full-time job. Yes. If you're not employed, you have to treat it like that. So finally, for both of you, what can employers do to make this whole hiring experience work better for everyone involved? I mean, I think it's empathize, not stereotype, you know, breaks in service. I think overhiring at times is a good thing. And you need to look at that.

[01:02:01] And there's some really good folks that strategically make sense to overhire. So somebody, the titles and the titles are different by every company and every function. So you have to look at what the feedback, right? I mean, if you can give them some feedback on why they didn't fit or what happened or why someone else was a better fit, you know, if you can give that, that would be great. And I think the candidates can hopefully use that and apply that to the next time. Yeah. So I agree with you. Empathy goes a long way.

[01:02:31] It honestly shocks me how many employers kind of seem like they're living under a rock. And look at the difficulty people are having right now as some sort of character defect. It bothers me a lot. I actually lose sleep over it, you know, on behalf of my clients. And two, the practice of saying what you do and then doing what you say would also go a long way because that would also involve following up, right?

[01:03:00] And having a very clear cut process, you know, that the person's going to know, okay, you know, we normally take three interviews, you know, rather than, okay, you've passed three interviews. But, you know, the business unit director and Timbuktu decided they want to talk to you too. And, you know, get a hold of your processes, I guess what I'm trying to say.

[01:03:26] And it would be really nice to if in each industry there would be some sort of a common problem. I mean, it's exhausting for people to feel like they're jerked around. And, you know, I'm thinking of one, this transitioning military candidate who, for example, being ghosted.

[01:03:50] He started interviewing while he was still in transition assistance program, was told by a company he'd interviewed with, oh gosh, six or seven times, four months before his discharge date, you don't have to look for any more jobs. We're giving you the offer. And then the offer never came. And he goes, yeah. And he's recovered. He has a fantastic job now.

[01:04:10] But, I mean, that was, you know, I mean, when you're working with the client, you walk them through that grief, you know, and stop, just stop doing that kind of crap. You're a human. These people are humans. Treat everybody the way you want to be treated. Honesty is the best policy. Yes, it is.

[01:04:31] Well, I think this conversation really shows why hiring is more complicated than simply telling candidates to fix their resume or telling recruiters to respond faster. Candidates are trying to get noticed. Recruiters trying to sort through enormous amounts of information. Hiring managers trying to make decisions. And now technology and AI sitting right in the middle of all of it. And it's just constant. So, but somewhere in that process, we can't forget there are actual people on both sides.

[01:05:00] And Melissa and Joe, thank you both for joining me and giving us a look at what's happening from both sides of the aisle. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Mark. And to everyone listening, I'm Mark Lane. And this is Ghosted by the Machine because behind every application, there's a human. Thanks again, both of you, for joining me today. Thank you. Appreciate it. Bye-bye. Bye, everyone. Bye-bye.