Leadership Strategy that Will Knock Your Socks Off

[00:00:00] I'm Felicia Shakiba and this is CPO PLAYBOOK, where we solve a business challenge in every

[00:00:07] episode.

[00:00:08] In order to effectively contribute at the strategy table, Chief People Officers must

[00:00:14] present a highly impactful HR agenda to the management team.

[00:00:17] To achieve this, Chief People Officers must leverage data and analytics to impartially

[00:00:22] present the people agenda, advocating for initiatives in a business-oriented manner.

[00:00:27] They can strategically collaborate with business leaders from early stages to establish themselves

[00:00:32] as reliable advisors committed to driving business outcomes.

[00:00:36] Additionally, clear communication is essential in demonstrating HR's contribution to the

[00:00:41] bottom line by facilitating revenue generation, cost reduction through efficiency enhancements,

[00:00:47] and alignment with overarching business strategy.

[00:00:50] To share her story on how she has accomplished all of this, today I have the pleasure of

[00:00:55] speaking with Sarita Brown, Group Chief People Officer and Communications at Virgin Money,

[00:01:01] based in London.

[00:01:02] Sarita, welcome to the show.

[00:01:05] Thank you, Felicia.

[00:01:06] Nice to be here.

[00:01:08] It's great to have you.

[00:01:09] Sarita, can you begin by telling us about Virgin Money, the headcount, where are

[00:01:14] employees based?

[00:01:16] Virgin Money is one of the top UK banks.

[00:01:19] We are the sixth largest bank in the UK.

[00:01:22] We are based in and around the UK with headquarters in Glasgow in Scotland, key hubs in Newcastle

[00:01:30] and Manchester, as well as in central London.

[00:01:34] We are 8,000 people and we service in the retail UK market, so mortgages, current

[00:01:41] accounts, and we also have a business banking proposition.

[00:01:44] Awesome.

[00:01:46] From a CPO's perspective, how do you establish yourself as a strategic partner to the business

[00:01:52] early in your career?

[00:01:54] It's a case of making sure that one, you understand the business that you're

[00:02:00] a CPO of or a HR business partner of and getting to know the leaders that you are

[00:02:06] working with.

[00:02:07] I always believe that the first step is in the contracting and the engaging.

[00:02:14] So understanding not just the individuals that you're working with, but the businesses

[00:02:18] that they are responsible for, their agendas, their challenges, and making sure that you

[00:02:26] can then appreciate what the HR contribution and support can be to helping them achieve

[00:02:32] what they need to achieve.

[00:02:34] So it's a lot of due diligence in the first stage.

[00:02:36] And I can imagine that not all leaders are open to that support.

[00:02:42] I've definitely had and seen resistance from leaders to meet or spend time with their

[00:02:49] HR strategic partner.

[00:02:51] So how do you do that part?

[00:02:53] How do you meet people with resistance or leaders that might be resistant to this

[00:02:57] type of support?

[00:02:58] Yeah, I've had some examples of that in my career and sometimes it's easier

[00:03:04] to go left and right.

[00:03:05] One of the things that I think has really helped me when I see a leader who is

[00:03:09] resistant to working in that strategic way with HR is to go find the thing that they

[00:03:16] need help with.

[00:03:18] Sometimes that means establishing a relationship and dialogue with their team and really

[00:03:23] getting to understand the managers in their business and finding out what's the sticking

[00:03:29] point, what's the problem that they're trying to solve or the issue that they've

[00:03:32] not been able to manage.

[00:03:34] And going that way and then working your way back up to the leader.

[00:03:38] Sometimes people need to see the strategic HR in action before they want to engage with

[00:03:43] you at a strategic level.

[00:03:45] So you have to decide where you're going to play with a leader when you want to

[00:03:49] start to engage with them and meet them where they are.

[00:03:52] We're always talking about readiness and whether leaders or a business unit is ready

[00:03:57] for the type of support that we want to give.

[00:03:59] What strategies have you used to communicate HR's impact on the bottom line and the

[00:04:05] business outcomes?

[00:04:06] I always tend to start from the outside in.

[00:04:11] Typically, a lot of HR agendas get drafted from a subject matter expertise perspective.

[00:04:17] So we are very good at relying on what we know and that can work.

[00:04:23] But depending on the environment you're in and to the point you've just made,

[00:04:27] the maturity of your business leaders, really for me, the value is starting from

[00:04:33] the external environment and the strategy and understanding the metrics that the

[00:04:39] business needs to solve for and playing that back into the HR agenda so that when

[00:04:45] you are looking at that SME lens on the work, your metrics line up with their

[00:04:52] metrics. And for me, the value is that things are seen as the same thing.

[00:04:56] Sometimes the HR agenda can be pigeonholed as people only.

[00:05:00] And I tend to think of it as people delivering business outcomes.

[00:05:04] And there's a lot of value tying the people metrics with business metrics.

[00:05:08] Sometimes they're the same thing.

[00:05:09] Sometimes they're a bit far apart.

[00:05:11] You can still draw a link.

[00:05:12] I like to think of it as direct and indirect metrics on business strategy.

[00:05:16] That's how I frame it. But it's grounded.

[00:05:19] I think the value and the credibility is when you can ground the HR agenda into

[00:05:24] the business agenda in a way that business leaders get.

[00:05:28] There are a lot of analytics and metrics that need to be paired in order to

[00:05:34] provide that communication of what is the bottom line and what's the impact,

[00:05:38] it sounds like.

[00:05:39] So how do you use data and analytics to build your influence?

[00:05:44] Yeah, I've learned as I've progressed my career and done different roles and

[00:05:49] had different experiences that data is HR's friend, not as an end of itself,

[00:05:55] but as the start point for conversations, for designing outcomes and understanding

[00:06:02] what you might be solving for.

[00:06:04] There's always a lot of interrogation and analysis that has to go into using data.

[00:06:10] I'm never one of those people that just looks at the data and assumes a

[00:06:13] conclusion. You have to interrogate it, especially people data.

[00:06:17] People data doesn't always tell you the story straight away,

[00:06:20] but you do need it as a start point.

[00:06:22] It also takes the emotion out of understanding what you might need to do or

[00:06:26] what you might be solving for and allows you to filter in perceptions and

[00:06:32] thoughts unfiltered.

[00:06:34] So it's a really good start point.

[00:06:36] Now, I think the only caveat I would say to this is not everybody has the

[00:06:40] investment or the capacity for sophisticated data platforms and cloud

[00:06:45] technology. So I want to talk for all levels of capabilities that people

[00:06:50] might be working a HR agenda in.

[00:06:52] So in your big organisation, this is a much easier play, right?

[00:06:56] You've got your cloud technologies will stay away from the company names,

[00:06:59] but you've got your cloud technologies.

[00:07:01] You have partners you can use consultancies to help you interrogate

[00:07:05] your data, to form views, to understand hypotheses for strategy and

[00:07:10] have really intelligent, informed discussions with your business.

[00:07:15] Some people might be working with Excel spreadsheets.

[00:07:18] I think all data, no matter what level of maturity is helpful, OK?

[00:07:23] As long as you supplement that with the capability around analytics,

[00:07:28] because data is different.

[00:07:30] For me, data is the ingredient.

[00:07:32] Analytics is what brings it as a recipe to life, right?

[00:07:36] And you've got to have the right people who can then look at that

[00:07:39] data, interrogate it and provide a basis for any strategy or

[00:07:46] proposition you might want to talk to your business about.

[00:07:49] And what type of outcomes and data would you say, maybe what are the

[00:07:54] top three types of metrics or business outcomes or ROI that you

[00:08:00] might really focus on in regards to impact?

[00:08:04] You've got your traditional metrics in any HR agenda around what I

[00:08:08] call the people productivity set.

[00:08:10] So engagement, absence, turnover, attrition, you've got the hygiene

[00:08:14] factors, but I think the value is when you take those metrics and

[00:08:20] then interplay them with others and get correlation.

[00:08:24] So some of the things that I've recently done is look at things

[00:08:28] like return on total equity metrics that we have in our business

[00:08:33] scorecard, our customer smile score, our customer satisfaction score,

[00:08:38] total shareholder return, all of those kind of scorecard business

[00:08:41] metrics and then correlate them with metrics that we believe have a

[00:08:46] direct or indirect impact.

[00:08:48] So colleague sentiment, so your engagement piece, media sentiment.

[00:08:52] How are you seen in the external environment as an organisation in

[00:08:58] both corporate affairs or be generally with the press looking at

[00:09:02] wellbeing indicators and understanding if any of these things are either

[00:09:08] directly or indirectly affecting positively or negatively your ability

[00:09:13] to hit certain scorecard outcomes.

[00:09:16] So I'm a big believer in not just looking at metrics of their own

[00:09:20] sake, but understanding the dynamics between how they play with each

[00:09:24] other or not.

[00:09:25] The other metric that I think is really important is how people are

[00:09:29] performing and performance management is always one of those very

[00:09:33] controversial areas, right?

[00:09:35] Because it can be objective, but it's so subjective in its application.

[00:09:39] But looking at performance management indicators as not just a lens on

[00:09:44] your capability profile, but is it actually driving the performance

[00:09:49] outcomes you want to see in your scorecard?

[00:09:52] So I think we look at metrics too much in of themselves rather than

[00:09:56] how they work with each other.

[00:09:58] Interesting.

[00:09:59] It's very interesting how they work with each other and you're not just

[00:10:02] looking at one piece of the data to really build the story of what you

[00:10:06] need to do as an organisation, rather how they work together.

[00:10:09] Yeah.

[00:10:10] And bring that again to the first point we were talking about

[00:10:13] strategy, bringing that to the way that you present HR as a function

[00:10:19] of business strategy.

[00:10:20] It's such an important lever and in every team that I've worked in,

[00:10:24] I've really tried to get people to start to fall in love with data.

[00:10:28] I wasn't a data geek at all.

[00:10:29] I'd be lying if I said that it was a natural passion of mine, but I

[00:10:33] learnt the value of it in building that engagement with the business

[00:10:37] and providing the HR function itself with a sense of credibility.

[00:10:42] I think sometimes HR functions do themselves a disservice and don't

[00:10:46] believe the value that they bring.

[00:10:48] They feel that they are a supplement to the business or

[00:10:52] servant to the business when actually I think we are equal

[00:10:56] partners and I try and make sure that I build that understanding of

[00:11:01] metrics and the value in every team that I've worked in and that people

[00:11:05] get it.

[00:11:06] They don't have to like it, but they get it and they can go

[00:11:09] and start having the right conversations with their business partners.

[00:11:12] Can you speak to an example of how you've objectively presented

[00:11:18] people issues using data to gain support?

[00:11:22] I would say there's loads of examples, but I think the one that really

[00:11:27] resonates for me because it's such an emotive subject is in the

[00:11:31] representation agenda.

[00:11:33] There are a couple of examples in the course of my career where

[00:11:36] I've had to initiate an agenda around representation, inclusion,

[00:11:42] the whole diversity and equity agenda.

[00:11:45] To your point, sometimes you're working with leaders who are a

[00:11:48] little bit resistant or don't want to engage with that agenda in a

[00:11:53] very integral way.

[00:11:55] It's almost the side program initiative and you have to try and

[00:11:59] make them understand the value of seeing it as a business priority.

[00:12:04] It's not a programmatic nice-to-do initiative, which it is all of

[00:12:09] that, but for the business leaders, this is really important.

[00:12:12] This will help you accelerate your outcomes.

[00:12:15] I think in the experience I've had that using data rather than

[00:12:20] sentiment and views and opinions and starting from a point of this is

[00:12:26] what you're not achieving, sometimes it puts people on the reactive

[00:12:30] back foot and you get the resistance as a result.

[00:12:33] I tend to start from a point of data with no assumptions and no

[00:12:37] judgment.

[00:12:39] Often I will look at the complete employee lifecycle.

[00:12:42] For some roles I've had in the past, I've had to focus on an aspect of

[00:12:45] it, but in the generalist work, the complete lifecycle to say here's

[00:12:50] how the people data looks in each of the life cycles.

[00:12:55] This is what it looks like.

[00:12:57] No judgment.

[00:12:59] Let's have a conversation.

[00:13:01] Let's talk about it.

[00:13:03] What are we seeing?

[00:13:05] If you approach it from that intellectual perspective, a good

[00:13:08] example is when people start to do the comparison and the contrast,

[00:13:12] they get curious.

[00:13:14] That's the first point.

[00:13:16] Even better is when you present it in a league table.

[00:13:19] You go to a collective team meeting and say here's how you're all

[00:13:22] doing and people start to do the compare and the contrast.

[00:13:25] Again, you get curiosity.

[00:13:27] You maybe pose some questions with the data.

[00:13:30] Do we think that this profile in our exit movement is right if we

[00:13:35] look at the data in the end, we see that there are people who are

[00:13:39] hiring profile.

[00:13:41] When you start to tackle it with questions and data and no answers,

[00:13:45] it makes people feel I think more comfortable to start interrogating

[00:13:50] it for themselves.

[00:13:52] I think the equity and diversity agenda has been a great place to

[00:13:56] really use data in a way that disarms people.

[00:14:00] I think there are a lot of different interpretations of that from one

[00:14:04] company to the next.

[00:14:06] What do you consider the meat and potatoes of an employee life cycle?

[00:14:10] I'm really old fashioned on this and I'm old fashioned because it

[00:14:14] rings true.

[00:14:16] It's a life cycle.

[00:14:18] It doesn't have a start and an end point.

[00:14:21] If you were looking at it typically, it's everything you do with

[00:14:25] the people that engage with your business.

[00:14:28] I think it's important to look at the point of start at attraction, how

[00:14:32] you are perceived in the market externally to when you actually bring

[00:14:36] people in.

[00:14:38] You hire, onboarding, induction, learning and development, reward

[00:14:42] and remuneration to the other aspects of the cycle that people

[00:14:46] don't always focus on until they need to but I think sometimes

[00:14:50] that's short sighted.

[00:14:52] Things like grievances, absence management, things that can really

[00:14:56] make people feel engaged with the organization's CSR or ERG agenda

[00:15:00] all the way through to exit management which could be voluntary

[00:15:04] or involuntary.

[00:15:06] And then how people leave the organization and stay engaged.

[00:15:10] Alumni, network mechanisms and referral pieces.

[00:15:14] It's not that they're always your employees.

[00:15:17] I don't see the life cycle as in-life management.

[00:15:21] Sometimes I think it's when people have left or they have an

[00:15:25] interaction with your organization but they don't join.

[00:15:28] So I think you have to consider everything in that life cycle.

[00:15:31] We've talked a lot about metrics and I want to just dig one level

[00:15:35] deeper.

[00:15:37] How do you determine which business metrics and key performance

[00:15:41] indicators to track, to demonstrate HR's value?

[00:15:45] I think this depends on the context.

[00:15:49] One of the things I always do before determining any strategy, at

[00:15:53] any level I've worked actually, is to do an external market map

[00:15:57] and an internal one.

[00:15:59] And understand what's going on.

[00:16:01] What's going on in the environment that we are operating in,

[00:16:04] either the industry or it could be the team environment depending on

[00:16:08] the level of operation.

[00:16:10] But if we take it as a CPO, what's happening in the external

[00:16:13] environment, the macroeconomic political landscape, demographics

[00:16:16] that might be impacting geopolitical uncertainties, all of

[00:16:20] that, and then I think about the fiscal financial context and

[00:16:24] landscape, especially in banking.

[00:16:26] And really, and I've done this with my board, really elevate

[00:16:29] everybody to this is the world we're working in.

[00:16:32] And then look at the internal landscape and say this is how we

[00:16:36] currently look.

[00:16:38] And then I tend to try and then think about how do you distill

[00:16:42] that into the key priorities therefore that we need to think about

[00:16:46] if you think about our business strategy?

[00:16:48] Given that external environment, given this internal landscape,

[00:16:52] what are the things that we, one, need to, we see as the people

[00:16:56] priorities.

[00:16:58] So what out of that distills into people priorities?

[00:17:01] Two, what are the challenges to that?

[00:17:04] So we might be enabled to deliver those priorities or not.

[00:17:08] And if we're not, what are the things therefore that we'll need

[00:17:11] to plug as a function and or as an enterprise?

[00:17:15] And then understand the outcomes that we would expect to see as a

[00:17:20] result.

[00:17:21] Okay, and this is where the metrics comes in.

[00:17:23] And then be very honest about the realistic view of what's

[00:17:28] achievable, what's probably not.

[00:17:31] And I also think it's important to whatever you decide to put a

[00:17:35] time horizon on things.

[00:17:37] I think it's really important that HR typically tries to do

[00:17:42] everything or look like it wants to do everything.

[00:17:45] We want to please everybody.

[00:17:47] I tend to work in the opposite way.

[00:17:49] I'm quite a rebel.

[00:17:50] So I believe that we're most effective when we cut our cloth

[00:17:55] to suit what it is we can do.

[00:17:57] I don't think anyone should overcommit.

[00:17:59] I'm not into overcommitting.

[00:18:01] I am into overachieving, but I'm not into overcommitting because

[00:18:05] I think you should be honest about what's possible.

[00:18:07] And then be really clear about what could happen if you had what

[00:18:11] you needed.

[00:18:12] Because sometimes people want to catch everything in the one

[00:18:15] strategy, and I just don't think that's right and effective.

[00:18:19] And I think the high performance that I've seen over my

[00:18:22] career with the teams that I've worked with and led are

[00:18:25] teams that really stay focused, laser-focused on critical

[00:18:29] priorities.

[00:18:30] And then as things get achieved and capacity becomes

[00:18:33] built, you can add things in.

[00:18:36] And I believe that that's worked in my career.

[00:18:39] And so you can see that HR becomes a more respected

[00:18:42] function, and you also have an ability to add stuff in as

[00:18:47] you get things done.

[00:18:49] But you don't overcommit at the get-go.

[00:18:52] What you just said I think is so critical because I see

[00:18:56] so many HR leaders who are saying we need X, Y,

[00:19:00] and Z.

[00:19:01] We need it by this date.

[00:19:02] And those are all great things to want and to have.

[00:19:06] I think it's important to think about it as a business as

[00:19:09] soon as possible.

[00:19:10] But at the end of the day, if you're not going deep and

[00:19:13] you're not getting one thing really, really right and

[00:19:15] doing it really well, you are basically just throwing

[00:19:18] yourself into all of these things, and then nothing is

[00:19:21] really getting solved when you have three, four,

[00:19:25] five, six things on your OKRs that are huge takeovers.

[00:19:31] How does an HR leader, a chief people officer push back

[00:19:35] on upper management to say, no, I can only handle these

[00:19:39] three things on my agenda if you want it to do well?

[00:19:43] Because in most CPOs, they're going to be fearful or

[00:19:46] any executive would be fearful of saying, oh, my

[00:19:49] executive, my manager doesn't think I can handle it.

[00:19:52] Right?

[00:19:53] How do you do that well?

[00:19:55] Yeah, it's the holy grail of relationship management,

[00:19:58] right?

[00:19:59] And it goes back to where we started at the

[00:20:01] beginning of the conversation.

[00:20:02] You've got to get that relationship and that

[00:20:04] contracting right at the beginning.

[00:20:06] It's great when you work with an executive, be it your

[00:20:09] CEO or your peers and your chairman and board who get

[00:20:13] you and you get them.

[00:20:14] It works great.

[00:20:15] Perfect.

[00:20:16] But I always say solve for the scenarios where that's

[00:20:19] not the case.

[00:20:20] Right?

[00:20:21] And the first nugget of advice I would give people

[00:20:23] is you've just got to feel really confident about

[00:20:26] what you do.

[00:20:27] You've got to stand in your own belief and you've

[00:20:29] got to feel credible, you for yourself, because you

[00:20:32] will meet these resistance.

[00:20:34] Even I would argue with some of the leaders that

[00:20:36] you get on with and you have a good relationship

[00:20:38] with, you might get into a situation where there's

[00:20:41] challenges.

[00:20:42] But leaders respect people who stand in and are

[00:20:45] anchored in what they're doing.

[00:20:47] And sometimes you just need a bit of time to show

[00:20:50] them the results, the beginning of the results,

[00:20:53] and then the credibility comes in.

[00:20:55] The one word I would say that this anchors on is

[00:20:59] trust.

[00:21:00] A lot of the time when I've been in these

[00:21:02] situations, I always say to either my peer or the

[00:21:06] leader I'm working with, you have to trust me.

[00:21:09] If you don't trust me, this isn't going to work.

[00:21:12] And I don't think as HR leaders and CPOs we

[00:21:15] rely enough on that type of language, but that

[00:21:18] type of language starts every relationship in the

[00:21:20] world.

[00:21:21] Right?

[00:21:22] 100%.

[00:21:23] Bankers have been saying it to each other since

[00:21:25] the beginning of time.

[00:21:26] Right?

[00:21:27] Trust me.

[00:21:28] And trust is really important.

[00:21:29] And if somebody said to you to what's the one

[00:21:31] thing you would say you would appreciate from

[00:21:33] business leaders saying about you haven't worked

[00:21:35] with you, it's that.

[00:21:36] That they felt they could trust me.

[00:21:38] Because if they trust me, I'm not going to let

[00:21:41] them down.

[00:21:42] I'm going to do what I say I said I was going

[00:21:44] to do.

[00:21:45] And I always say to them, and you can trust

[00:21:47] me to tell you if I think things are going off

[00:21:49] course as well.

[00:21:50] So the relationship piece is really important.

[00:21:52] And if you're in those tough, challenging

[00:21:54] relationships where you're having to beat

[00:21:56] through concrete a bit, keep going.

[00:21:58] Right?

[00:21:59] Don't worry about if it doesn't feel warm and

[00:22:01] fuzzy straight away.

[00:22:02] It doesn't have to be a warm and fuzzy

[00:22:04] relationship.

[00:22:05] Because I've found even when it's not like

[00:22:08] that, by delivery it becomes that way.

[00:22:11] Because they see, oh, okay, it is working.

[00:22:14] Some relationships you get there quicker, some

[00:22:17] it takes longer.

[00:22:18] But I think if the CPO acts like the CFO

[00:22:21] and doesn't care, because I'm here to do a job,

[00:22:25] it will work.

[00:22:26] And I think a lot of CPOs don't fall into that

[00:22:29] groove quickly and easily of I'm here to do a

[00:22:31] job.

[00:22:32] And you don't have to like me.

[00:22:34] It's great if you do, but you don't have

[00:22:36] to.

[00:22:37] But let's focus on what we're here to achieve.

[00:22:39] And I think you get the point of good

[00:22:41] relationships either way.

[00:22:42] But one just takes a bit longer than the

[00:22:44] other.

[00:22:45] Serita, what advice do you have for

[00:22:48] navigating organizational politics to drive

[00:22:51] change?

[00:22:52] It's going to sound like a political

[00:22:55] manifesto.

[00:22:56] But first of all, have your mandate.

[00:22:59] Believe in your mandate and who you are.

[00:23:02] I can't stress this enough because not

[00:23:04] everyone's going to agree with you.

[00:23:06] Not everyone's going to like what you're

[00:23:08] doing.

[00:23:09] But you've got to be clear what you're

[00:23:11] bringing to the organization and the

[00:23:14] value you can deliver.

[00:23:15] Once you're clear on that, you're going

[00:23:17] to be able to move on.

[00:23:18] Once you're clear on that, then my

[00:23:20] advice around politics is to go where the

[00:23:23] energy is.

[00:23:24] There are always going to be people

[00:23:26] that try and undermine or challenge or

[00:23:29] resist what you do.

[00:23:30] And that's fine.

[00:23:31] Go where the energy is and build up

[00:23:34] the momentum and the support.

[00:23:36] That's how campaigns are built.

[00:23:38] You go there first.

[00:23:39] And then as you start to have proof

[00:23:42] of concept for want of a better term,

[00:23:45] you can start to follow.

[00:23:46] But the key is not to let the politics

[00:23:48] become the job.

[00:23:49] The key is to navigate the politics.

[00:23:51] They're always going to be there.

[00:23:53] I've never fallen into that trap of

[00:23:55] worrying too much about all the

[00:23:57] spinning plates of an organization

[00:23:59] because you're never going to reach

[00:24:01] all of them.

[00:24:02] But you've got to very quickly

[00:24:04] understand what's going to be the

[00:24:06] valuable areas that will help you,

[00:24:08] that will advocate, that will sponsor,

[00:24:10] and how then can you use that to

[00:24:12] build momentum to maybe tackle other

[00:24:14] areas that are slightly more challenging.

[00:24:16] So have your strategy for yourself.

[00:24:19] I think there's two angles to a CPO's

[00:24:21] role around politics is you have to

[00:24:24] build a strategy for the enterprise,

[00:24:25] but you also have to build a strategy

[00:24:27] for how you are going to manage that

[00:24:29] agenda and those and the politics

[00:24:31] that ensue.

[00:24:32] And I think you need to do the

[00:24:34] work on both those things.

[00:24:35] I think that is incredible advice.

[00:24:38] I know so many times we are in

[00:24:42] the business of people.

[00:24:44] And to say that we won't be dealing

[00:24:46] with any politics I think is silly

[00:24:49] to say, but at the end of the day,

[00:24:52] like you said, knowing where the

[00:24:54] energy is and going where the energy

[00:24:56] is and seeing where that's

[00:24:58] manifesting and growing and being able

[00:25:00] to get on the boat with them.

[00:25:02] Right? Seems like that is where we

[00:25:05] can maybe double down on what we

[00:25:07] need to do and how we can support

[00:25:09] and build the business.

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:12] Awesome.

[00:25:13] Sarita, this is fantastic.

[00:25:16] I'm so happy to have you on the show.

[00:25:18] You bring so much energy and light

[00:25:20] and focus and insight into this

[00:25:23] conversation.

[00:25:24] And we're just so lucky to have

[00:25:26] you as a guest.

[00:25:27] So thank you so much for being here

[00:25:29] and thank you so much for your

[00:25:31] contribution.

[00:25:32] Thank you for having me.

[00:25:34] Absolutely.

[00:25:35] That's Sarita Brown, Group Chief

[00:25:38] People and Communications Officer

[00:25:40] at Virgin Money.

[00:25:42] If today's episode captured your

[00:25:44] interest, please consider sharing

[00:25:46] it with a friend or visit

[00:25:48] CPOPlaybook.com to read the

[00:25:51] episode or learn more about

[00:25:53] leadership and talent management.

[00:25:55] We greatly appreciate your rating,

[00:25:57] review and support as a subscriber.

[00:25:59] I'm Felicia Shakiba.

[00:26:01] See you next Wednesday and

[00:26:03] thanks for listening.