[00:00:00] I'm Felicia Shakiba, and this is CPO Playbook, where we solve a business challenge in every episode. At its core, organizational courage is about having the strength to speak truth to power,
[00:00:27] confront challenges head-on, and build an environment where trust, vulnerability, and psychological safety thrive. It's the ability to look at the proverbial elephant in the room and say, let's address this before it gets bigger. But how do you foster this courage within an organization? To help us explore this critical topic, I'm thrilled to welcome back Angela Cheng-Cimini.
[00:00:55] Angela is the former SVP of Talent and People at Harvard Business Publishing. Angela, welcome back. Thank you so much, Felicia, for having me return. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, we're excited to have you, so thank you. To start, can you share a bit about your background and really what drew you to focus on the concept of organizational courage?
[00:01:21] So I have 30 years of HR experience across different sectors, across different life stages of an organization, startup, to maturity, to in decline. And this last election has brought much heated debate. But one thing that I think we can agree to is that he's been able to convert his followers.
[00:01:46] President Trump has a charisma and a magnetic personality that draws people close to him and commands fierce loyalty. And it had given me pause to think about what is it in our leaders that either promotes that kind of energy and depresses the ability of other people to stand up and say, No, I don't agree or no, I stand apart.
[00:02:14] Because there are certainly going to be policy decisions that even his closest team don't agree with. And yet we are hearing in the latest developments that people who used to be outspoken critics of his now flocking to his side, generously donating their time, using their political capital to endorse and support him.
[00:02:39] And so it gives me time to reflect around why do people lack the courage to stand up and challenge. Challenge the status quo is challenge the thinking. And I think good leaders need to have that kind of courage. So I've been thinking about that subject quite a bit lately. And it's a delicate subject, to be fair, because I know in many a time, I have been that person that has wanted to speak up.
[00:03:08] And I know we have a fantastic episode with Todd Kashtan, one of my earlier episodes. And he wrote the book on how to dissent and speak up and speak your mind. But I think that courage is different. You know, courage is like, do I actually make the choice to do this? Right.
[00:03:29] I know that previously we talked a lot about the idea of conflict debate and avoiding problems until they snowball into something really unimaginable. So can you tell us about maybe a time when you witnessed this in an organization and how did that impact the team or the business?
[00:03:51] I once worked for an executive who hadn't yet grown fully into the role and was definitely learning on the ropes and yet wasn't really coachable. And there were moments when they weren't showing up maturely. They weren't showing up thoughtfully. They were leading with emotion first because they didn't have experience to base it on.
[00:04:21] They were going with their instinct, which certainly had served them well up to a point. But then when decisions carried more consequence, when it impacted more people, there needed to be an ability to open the aperture and see broader and give birth to a wider perspective. And so I needed to have a conversation with that leader to say that you're building an echo chamber. Not sure. Not sure that you're aware of that.
[00:04:49] But you're surrounded by people who are brilliant, who are dedicated, who want to help you do the right thing, who want to do the right thing, who are committed to the goals and objectives of this organization. Let us in and let us do our job. And a very difficult conversation to have the first time around. Had to have subsequent follow-ups because it's a muscle to be learned, right, for leaders to be vulnerable, to say they don't have the answer.
[00:05:16] But over time, I was able to build up trust with that leader so that they were willing and able to let other views, perspectives come into play. And we saw a change, a shift in that leader's ability to perform. And so I think when you can have that kind of trusting relationship, it's less about courage, right? Then it just becomes the open dialogue. But someone has to break the dam first. Someone has to go first.
[00:05:47] That's interesting that you say that because that is a prerequisite, right? The ability to build trust, which actually leads to the ability to be vulnerable and therefore have the right conversations that you need to have that you say are sometimes very challenging. Trust is such an interesting concept. I was privileged enough to spend time with Amy Edmondson, the HBS professor who is credited with coining the phrase psychological safety.
[00:06:14] And she and I had a conversation about earning trust, building trust. And I said that I actually like to work from a perspective of assumed trust, which is actually she called out then. She's like, oh, that's actually redundant because trust by its very definition means that you just sort of almost blindly believe that the other person is going to do what they say they're going to do, that they have good intention, that they're not going to do an end round around you,
[00:06:42] that you're going to trust your partner to be faithful to you to the end, even if you can't be with them 24-7, right? That is what trust is. Trust is not having all the information, not having perfect visibility, but believing that the person is going to do right by you. And so I think organizations sometimes waste time building that trust. How simpler, how much quicker, how much easier would it be if we just all walked into the room and say, I trust you until I give you reason not to.
[00:07:09] Believe that I'm here sharing your objectives with only good intent, that if I say something constructive, it is not to cut you down. It is to lift you up and to build us into something better and stronger. This whole suspicion about whether or not I can trust you or not can actually be counterproductive. And I think that's easier said than done. It is. For sure. For sure. I thought, gosh, that would be a great world to live in, right?
[00:07:37] But the reality is, is that a lot of leaders, and I've heard this from a lot of leaders, is that, you know, they've been burned, right? They put their blood, sweat, and tears into a business, into their career or whatnot. And they are definitely terrified of leaving a task or responsibility to someone that could really unravel it, you know, fairly quickly. But I do think that this assumed trust piece is important.
[00:08:06] I think it does make lives easier. It's harder, I think, to trust someone to execute, right? Especially if you haven't known them for a while. And then there's also this baggage that we all carry around, I think, of instances where, like I've said before, where leaders have been burned and they say, you know what, I'm not going to be so trustful, you know, the next time around.
[00:08:32] So I guess my question is, how do we break the cycle or do we need to break the cycle? Like, how does assumed trust live and breathe? How does it show up in the workplace? I think that's such a great question, Felicia. I mean, to some degree, I think trust is on a, can be on a case-by-case basis, right?
[00:08:56] So if a leader is suspicious or skeptical because they've burned in the past, been burned in the past, then they start to project an energy of all that, of skepticism, of suspicion. And then that begins to propagate. And before you know it, you've built a culture unintentionally that is distrusting. Oh, yeah, yeah. So if someone has burned you, then it's helpful to recognize that that was to that, with that one person and not the entire organization.
[00:09:23] So surround yourself with people that you can trust. And if there's an element that no longer fits, then you have to take action. And I have certainly experienced that where team members have broken the team trust and there's a decision to be made whether or not it can be repaired or whether or not it's been irrevocably broken. And I'm pleased to say that in most cases, the person is able to repair.
[00:09:50] But that does take the leader leaning in and saying, okay, I'm going to take a bet because we've been burnt once before. I'm going to trust that the second time around is going to be different. So leaders have to in some way take the high road and take a chance. It doesn't mean every single time you're going to be right, but then there will have to be consequences if and when there is a second time. But I think there's more to be gained by trying to rebuild trust than to never trust.
[00:10:20] We'll be right back. What I love about the Workforce Agility Limited Series by Cornerstone was we talked to executives and customers all about skills. Skills, skills, skills, skills, skills. Cornerstone has a wonderful background in learning and development, training, et cetera. Their LMS is world class.
[00:10:42] But they've centered the business now, not just on that, like building upon that, but building upon how everything has moved to the skills economy. So check out the limited series called Workforce Agility, and you can get it wherever you get your podcast. And it's just a wonderful series where we talk to their executives on the shift of why and also their customers that are using it. So check it out whenever you get a chance. Appreciate it.
[00:11:11] Back to the show. I do agree with you that someone who is constantly skeptical of others erodes the culture so badly. It just dismantles people and their willingness to help out and be engaged. And so I do think that's a slippery slope.
[00:11:35] So you've said to me in the past that your superpower is really the ability to speak truth to power. And I was wondering, can you share a story about when you had to do that and what gave you the courage to take that step? I just recently recounted the story to someone else. This was very early in my career. It was only my second job. And the head of sales who reported to the CEO was known to be a bully, but he was a rainmaker. He delivered the numbers.
[00:12:05] So he was protected. And I had the misfortune of crossing the line with one of his favorite employees. She was smoking in her office, and I called her out on it. It was a policy. You're not supposed to smoke in your office. She ran to the head of sales, basically tattled on me, and I got a quick and severe call from him. He basically went on a tirade, berated me for behaving really inappropriately, and I figured at that moment that I was probably going to get fired.
[00:12:36] And so I said to him, I said, there's really only one person who can call me out that way. It's my father. You're not my father. So I'm going to go back to my office. I'm going to go back to work unless you tell me otherwise. And we ended the call. I, of course, called my head of HR. I was the divisional vice president at the time. And later that afternoon, I got a call from that head of sales with an apology. Really?
[00:13:06] Because I realized, well, especially when you have nothing to lose, right? The worst thing that I thought could happen to me at that moment was that I would lose my job. And I figured, well, I'm at the very least going to stick up for myself. Because I have found the moments, those moments are scary. But the moments that are even worse are when you're driving home and you beat yourself up because you didn't say this in the moment. And you wish you could do it over. And I wish I had stood up for myself.
[00:13:30] And those moments to me are far scarier because it means I didn't have the strength to do the things that I needed to do for myself in that moment. And I've learned to carry that forward. That I don't want to ever regret the opportunity to do the right thing for me. And that's not to say that I'm selfish at work because I think I'm pretty selfless when I'm committed to my organizations. I put the needs of the team before my own. But there are times when you have to set boundaries for yourself that are healthy, that are necessary. And that was one of them.
[00:13:58] And I developed a respect for myself and maybe even a modicum of respect from him. I didn't get fired. And in fact, I stayed on for a number of years afterwards. But I learned from that moment that speaking truth to power reveals something important about you and about the people you associate with. So if I were to get fired, then it's probably, you know what? I probably didn't belong there anyway. Right?
[00:14:28] So if the worst thing had come to pass, it probably would have been, they probably would have been doing me a favor. Because I have learned that I don't do well in organizations that aren't actually values driven. They might say they are, but those are the moments in which you can really test that. And I tested it and I came through on the other end with my dignity and ego intent. Well, that's a fantastic story. I know a lot of stories that don't end that way. For sure.
[00:14:58] But I also feel that if we, you know, don't do those things, then people get away with a lot more. Yes. Right? So it's worth the risk. And I'm hoping people will have, again, the courage to take that risk. But it really does go both ways. Trust.
[00:15:21] You know, how do you help teams and leaders build trust with newcomers, especially during times of change or transition? You know, these are heightened instances or contexts where people may not have a lot of trust. So how do you do that? You're so right. As you said, assume trust is a very difficult thing. It's not our muscle, right? Most of us are used to having to build trust over time. And so I have learned to give teams time.
[00:15:50] I do as much as I can for the newcomer to make space for them, to be a really active advocate, to demonstrate to the others that I am willing to trust this person. And so you should as well. And make time for those who are skeptical. Because every time you introduce a new member, right, it's disruptive. It changes the energy. It changes the dynamics of the team, particularly if the team was already really high-functioning before then. And every time you inject something different, it shakes everything up.
[00:16:20] And I have learned that it just takes time. It's not something you can rush. But I find that if I can role model a healthy relationship with that newcomer, it builds a little bit of confidence, a little bit more faith in the other people on the team. And I give that person as much opportunity to demonstrate that they belong there. And that has usually been the shortest and fastest route to absorbing a new member with as little drama as possible.
[00:16:47] And I think that, like you said before, you know, trust is such an important aspect of psychological safety. And psychological safety is such a critical element of organizational courage, right? So it really all goes hand in hand, that thread. So what are some ways that leaders can foster an environment where people feel safe to raise their concerns or challenge the status quo, right?
[00:17:13] Because the environment is really part of the culture that helps dictate whether or not these things are appropriate. Or like you said, you could get fired, right? It starts with them. So when I'm leading a team, I'm very closely monitoring how much airtime I'm taking. I want to make sure that I'm giving a lot of space to the rest of the team to participate, to weigh in, to process.
[00:17:43] I like to build in time to, okay, think about it and let's come back next week. Let's regroup. And I try to be really intentional about how I respond. I'm very cognizant of what my face is doing, what my body language is projecting, my choice of words. I try to just slow. My natural tempo is pretty fast. I walk fast. I talk. I eat fast. I'm the same way. I do it. Right? Right? Like, that's just my speed. That's just my speed.
[00:18:11] But I've learned that my cadence in team meetings has to be a beat slower because not everybody operates and processes in the same way that I do. And I find that if I just talk slower, everything doesn't feel so pressurized. It doesn't feel so rushed. So even in those sort of implicit signals, I'm helping people to understand that I'm taking time to listen, that I'm doing not all the speaking because I really want to hear from them. I'm being contemplative before I respond.
[00:18:39] And for me, just slowing everything down really signals that I want to create a space where people can participate and weigh in and challenge. And if I don't have the answer in the moment, I'll say that. I don't feel compelled anymore to be the smartest person in the room. The first time I was a manager, I was all about that. I had to demonstrate that I knew everything, even when I clearly did not. And I think people respect when leaders say, I don't know. When leaders say, I'll defer to you. When leaders say, I need time.
[00:19:09] Let me think about that. Tell me more. So I try to do more fact finding. I try to ask more questions than I have answers for sometimes. Sometimes all of those are the kinds of things that we can do really easily that help to build an environment where people can lean in and wait in and eventually jump in with both feet in and go toe to toe with me. It's really funny that you said that because I just did. There was an episode with Jan Rutherford.
[00:19:38] And it's we launched it in season two, and it is the difference between men and women leaders, basically. And he talks all about this. He talks about how much more self-awareness women have versus men just in general. Right. Because nothing's perfect. Yeah. That could always change from case to case. Right.
[00:20:06] But it's just so mind-blowing that you talk about that because this is the mindset of like most women leaders of being able to be really self-aware about facial expressions and how you approach and who's sitting where in the room and, you know, by language. Do you think that there's a world where I guess men could maybe adopt most more men, right, could adopt this self-awareness?
[00:20:36] Do you think it's in your experience? Do you think it's equal equal? Like what has been your experience in? Is it more women that build trust because of this? Is it more men for a different reason? I'm just curious, like your perspective on this piece. So I learned my self-awareness by watching others. So you have to have role models accessible to you, right? Examples to follow.
[00:21:05] And we still live in a world where there are more male leaders than female leaders, particularly in the HR function, I think, right? If you were to pull the CHROs, probably it's still more men than women. And so how do they pick up those new behaviors if they don't have role models for that? So if there are not as many women to watch and emulate, it's going to be harder to do that unless they've asked for that coaching, unless they've asked for that feedback.
[00:21:34] I had the privilege of working with a wonderfully self-aware CEO, constantly asking for feedback and retuning and refining. And he was as wonderful a student as he was a teacher. One of the best CEOs, to be sure. And it is no accident that the organization correspondingly performed really well.
[00:21:59] There was a correlation to really empathetic, vulnerable leadership and the kind of commitment and loyalty it engenders among staff. No question. I'm not saying that each person has to be feely touchy, but when you think about the greatest leaders, right? They have charisma. They respond. People respond to them. And you're right. I think that is all about self-awareness.
[00:22:23] So I try and establish those kinds of relationships so that I can then give leaders feedback so they can develop that self-awareness. Because I do think it's so key. I think it's so key. And I think we have an obligation in our role as HR to be able to hold up the mirror to our leaders and say, this is the energy you're putting out there. Is that what you wanted? If not, let's talk about the course correction. Or that was spot on. You nailed it.
[00:22:52] And just constantly assessing so that it becomes a habit. And then you can feel for yourself without anybody telling you, ooh, that was a little bit too much. And make changes in the moment. We'll be right back. Back to the show. There are many leaders who will defend their behavior. And they'll say, well, I've asked this person 50 times to do something and they still don't get it right. Oh, I'm stuck with this person.
[00:23:22] I'm losing it. Right? Those private, very intimate, delicate conversations that we have every so often. And I guess the question is, you know, obviously that behavior erodes trust, which erodes psychological safety and the culture and performance and the rest of it. Right? It just kind of all cripples. But what do you say to that type of leader? You know, how do you show them, hey, I see you're frustrated. You have a right to be frustrated.
[00:23:53] But how do we get them to realize that the behavior still needs to change, even when they're feeling like nobody's got their back? There is a point at which it's diminishing returns. So if that leader is frustrated with their leaders, at some point in time they have to make a call as to whether or not it's worth the continued energy to continue to give the feedback.
[00:24:19] Because courage is also a heavy burden. Right? To always be the brave one. To always be the one to be the tip of the spear. To always be the one to be the first to point out there's an elephant in the room. And building allies, getting others in to also carry the message is hugely helpful.
[00:24:40] I was able to do that in a previous role where there was a group of us within the leadership team that were able to rally and keep each other going. And we would take turns. Like we would assign each other roles when we would show up in team meetings and be like, okay, this time you're going to say this. Next time. Right? I mean, there was a strategy to how we were going to give feedback to our leaders.
[00:25:05] But there does come a point where you can only change a person so much if they don't want to change. Right. And so to the extent that the frustration is no longer bearable, you kind of have to make a choice. And I've certainly made that choice. And that has meant leaving otherwise great organizations, great teams. There's only so much I can do. Right. We're not superhuman. No, we're not. We're not.
[00:25:35] We don't have a magic wand. That's right. I wish. I mean, mine would be yellow. I love that. So organizational courage, right? It often requires this vulnerability and humility from leaders. So how do you coach leaders to balance this vulnerability with maintaining authority and inspiring the confidence they need to inspire for people to perform and engage?
[00:26:05] Well, that's EQ, right, Felicia? Knowing when to be assertive, knowing when to be vulnerable, when to command, when to be building consensus. I mean, all of that are the power skills that leaders need to develop because every situation is different. It's situational leadership, right?
[00:26:30] The way you carry a tone, the posture, the position, it all fluctuates based upon the context, the audience, the message you're trying to deliver. And knowing when and how and at what speed, what tone, what volume, all of that is about self-awareness. Yeah.
[00:26:51] I have learned over 30 years that when I walk on a manufacturing floor with hourly employees who may never have finished college, not to talk down to them. And when I go into a boardroom with people with all of the pedigree and the bank accounts that will rival others, they're nothing special. And not being fearful of either of those situations, but knowing that there's a different approach to each of those, right?
[00:27:20] The people with huge egos can't be handled the same way with someone who's struggling to pay their mortgage every month. So all of that requires a kind of, a different kind of courage. Knowing when to be a lion, knowing when to be a kitten, right? All of that is, is experience-based.
[00:27:49] But it does need to come from a place where you're willing to have those conversations. You're willing to go into the room in the first place and you're willing to find a connection, right? Don't be intimidated by the board member and don't, don't denigrate to the people who you think you're better than. Like all of that is about the self-awareness that makes us better people, which makes us better leaders. Yeah. And EQ, I mean, I don't think I could speak more about it.
[00:28:16] I don't think in business, we're not always talking about this, right? We're talking about deliverables and OKRs and goals and execution and strategy. But EQ doesn't really come up in conversation yet. It is literally one of the most powerful, valuable tools that anybody can use because knowing, and this is difficult, right? Knowing when and where and how to behave with certain people in certain contexts and different personalities and environments.
[00:28:45] I honestly feel like this is one of the reasons why I got into this field is because it is so complex. There's so much gray area and every situation, every person has like a different DNA. And, you know, I think in engineering, I know a lot, I've supported a lot of employees in engineering. And I think, gosh, that is really complex, but you've got ones and zeros.
[00:29:15] Like we don't have any of those. We have, you know, this is so much more difficult. No, I mean, everybody has, you know, different complexities and what they do and simplicities. But I think we often hear that employees are really the most important asset of any organization, which I feel like we can all agree to. And if we don't, maybe we're living in a different world.
[00:29:36] But in your experience, how does a lack of courage at the leadership level impact employee engagement and morale or anything? I mean, it means it means so much. It matters so much. You know, I've seen I've seen really great leaders stand up and do the public mea culpa.
[00:30:01] And I've seen other leaders ignore it completely and unwilling to have the hard conversations, unwilling to admit to mistakes. And that's a form of disrespect. We forget that employees at home are their own CEO, their own CFO, their own. They are the chief executive of their household. They make life impacting decisions every day at home.
[00:30:25] And for some reason, when they show up at work, we suddenly think they are no better than the title and the pay that we give them. And if we give employees the respect that they deserve, they will bring so much more value. And so leaders who demonstrate the courage to treat them like responsible adults will get so much more out of that relationship with those employees.
[00:30:54] Yeah, I can't overstate how important it is for leaders to show up authentically. I know we use that word probably we overuse it probably too much. But I remember once work, you know, working with a leader who didn't know how to read the room. And he would ramble and ramble and tell stories losing the audience way long before they would stop talking. Right. It's just check, you know, check the eye roll. Right. Like everybody's tuning out. They're back on their phone.
[00:31:24] Right. Like know when what you're saying is resonating. Know what's important. Know what people want and need to hear from you. So, um, I don't know. Some of that is coachable. Some of it isn't. I mean, I, you know, I guess I could have given the high sign in the back of the room. You're like, check over here. Yes. Yes, exactly. Right. Right. Um, but on the other hand, sometimes those are just things they have to figure out for themselves and some never get there. Yeah, I agree with that.
[00:31:55] What practical advice would you give to leaders who feel stuck in a culture of avoidance or fear? Like what are the first steps to building a more courageous organization? I feel like I know what you're going to say, but I'm going to let you respond. I would talk to the, I would talk to the team responsible for setting the tone. I did putting a name, identifying that there is a dysfunction that needs to be addressed.
[00:32:22] And then, I mean, and you know, and you need to have sort of the, the pre-talk, right? You take people aside and you say, Hey, I'm going to bring this up. Are you with me? Are you an ally? Let's build because your strength in numbers. And then let's carry this conversation forward together. That's, that's a tough one to go along. I mean, this is all about courage, but there's, it's also about being smart, right? You don't want to be the only one hanging out there. If everybody's like, everything's fine, right?
[00:32:47] That, that doesn't do much for your own credibility, but build up alliances, build up a, build up a common language and then start to have that conversation and start breaking it down. And if the conversations go nowhere after a really solid attempt, then you have to reassess whether or not the environment can be changed. Sometimes it can, and sometimes it can't. So I have learned more quickly to identify when it's no longer working for me.
[00:33:16] And I think that's also a healthy skill. You don't want to bang your head up against a wall, but then there are also times where you're just not quite ready to give up when there's still too much at stake. And those conversations are still worth having. Organizational courage doesn't always equal the outcome you want it to, but having it is important and knowing when to walk away, you know, is equally as important. So that makes sense to me.
[00:33:43] If you could give one piece of advice to someone stepping into a new leadership role, what would it be? Knowing that maybe not everyone will trust that person, maybe how would they get the organizational courage to speak truth to power, make change? I think the most important way for a leader stepping into a new role in the display, organizational
[00:34:12] courage is not to have all the answers on day one. Spend the first 30, 60, 90 building relationships, forging the team, actively listening, understand what the needs and the challenges are. There will be plenty of time for you to demonstrate that you were the right person for the role. They put you there for a reason. But there is nothing like building trust by just leaning in and listening because it shows
[00:34:37] low ego, high EQ, and a really good sense of what's going on around you as you absorb your new environment. And the courage, the courageous part is holding back. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Not charging in there with all the answers. I know so many people who started a new role and they're like, I know this is broken. I want to help. I want to make this better.
[00:35:02] And I remember a time when I was in a new role and I was just asking a ton of questions and even asking questions was somewhat overwhelming. But it did turn out in my favor. But at the end of the day, listening, I think, is the key. And having, like you said, the courage to wait, be patient, listen, understand, and then have
[00:35:29] the opportunity or the courage to, you know, once you've really understood, you know, how to move forward, provide those suggestions and discover if those suggestions would work in collaboration. Right. So, Angela, thank you so much. This has really been an awesome conversation. I'm so glad you returned to do a second episode.
[00:35:55] For anyone who's listening, please go back and listen to Angela's first episode. She's fantastic, has so much knowledge, and we're excited to have you back. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. As always, you're a masterful host. If today's episode captured your interest, please consider sharing it with a friend and leaving a review. To learn more about how CPO Playbook can support you or a leader you know with executive coaching
[00:36:22] or organizational transformation, visit us at cpoplaybook.com. Your support as a subscriber means the world to us. So thank you for tuning in. I'm Felicia Shakiba. Let's connect on LinkedIn. See you next Wednesday.
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