We Bought a Company to Teach You This

[00:00:00] I'm Felicia Shakiba, and this is CPO PLAYBOOK, where we solve a business challenge in every episode. Today, we're focusing on the unique leadership and cultural transitions that occur after a private equity acquisition.

[00:00:28] Joining me is Bobbi Kingsbury, Managing Partner at MCM Capital Partners, an expert in navigating the complexities of acquiring and transforming lower middle market companies. Bobbi has a proven track record of balancing culture preservation with the need for rapid change, and he brings a wealth of experience in fostering accountability, enhancing leadership, and ensuring businesses thrive post-acquisition.

[00:00:57] In today's episode, we'll explore how to re-engage leaders post-acquisition, establish organizational accountability, and motivate teams during a period of intense transition. Bobbi, it's great to have you here. Welcome. Felicia, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be on the show. I'm very humbled that you asked me as I've listened to a number of other episodes before. There's been a lot of great guests so far, and they've kind of set the bar maybe too high for me, but I appreciate you having me on.

[00:01:27] You are more than welcome to be here, and it's a pleasure having you. Bobbi, can you tell us a bit about your background and MCM Capital Partners? Sure. I guess I'll start with personally. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, graduated with a degree in finance from Fordham University. I had a little bit different path into private equity, so I was drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates in 2002, played professional baseball for six years, so I have the perfect background to join a private equity fund.

[00:01:57] So I think my story resonated with a lot of people. It just initially got me in the door because I have a more unique background, which helped me, I think, early on in my career. Now, as I get older, that becomes further and further in the past. But at MCM Capital, we're a lower middle market private equity fund, not the big bad wolves that everybody thinks that we are. We focus on acquiring niche manufacturing and value-added distribution businesses, generating $10 to $75 million in annual revenue.

[00:02:27] So when we say lower middle market, we mean lower middle market. These are small businesses. They're unique. You know, they have flat sides, which we hope to round out during our whole period. And then obviously, you know, create shareholder value. So what drew you to focus on the lower middle market space? Like what makes this niche rewarding to you? I think initially, you know, file it under better be lucky than good. You know, Mark Manser, who's the founder of our firm, gave me an opportunity, you know, coming right from baseball.

[00:02:57] So it's not like I went and researched and said, hey, I want to work for a lower middle market private equity fund. And I'm glad that I do in retrospect and being here now for 17 years. I think the lower middle market presents so many opportunities to add value, you know, to businesses because they're small for a reason. Culture, especially in the lower middle market business, is vital and is so important in positive ways that we can affect that moving forward.

[00:03:24] So I think a lot of people now over the years, having been in the middle market and the mega buyouts, they're all trying to find ways to get into the lower middle market because that's where a lot of the accretive value can occur in a lot of different businesses. Yeah, I see that. That makes a lot of sense because you've kind of done product market fit. You see some momentum and then it's kind of like strike while the iron's hot and scale. Is that fair to say?

[00:03:53] Yeah, I think it's fair to say. But then, you know, some of the businesses are small for a reason. You know, as we've talked about before, oftentimes the businesses that we get involved with, the business owner is typically an engineer. You know, they're your classic entrepreneur. You know, they're willing to invest in technical people, operations, willing to buy new pieces of equipment. But on the sales and marketing side, especially on the marketing side, it's like voodoo magic. We don't want to touch that.

[00:04:22] We had one of our CEOs actually prior to buying the business. He said, Bobby, yeah, I've had a sales marketing guy. And I fired him because he was being a sales and marketing guy. I said, Tom, what's the problem with that? He thought of their business, which was a little bit of some cultural arrogance. I would say is we only do the tough stuff. You know, we do the upper echelon. Only give us your, you know, their slogan was if you had a monkey on your back, we'd like to meet him. And so they only wanted the tough projects.

[00:04:50] So that sales and marketing person bringing in business that would have kept the lights on. You know, they just turned it away because it wasn't challenging enough. Right. So it's a different mindset that we typically see. One of the other challenges that you've mentioned is transitioning leadership post-acquisition. Like, can you share what typically happens during this transition period? Like, what common hurdles do you encounter? There's a lot of them.

[00:05:14] You know, and I think more often than not, the ones that really that we have to face initially is maybe for the first time ever or for the first time in a long time, that CEO, entrepreneur, he or she has a boss or someone to answer to for the first time. So making unilateral decisions is no longer part of the game plan. You have a board, you have a senior operating partner that you're responsible to or will report to moving forward.

[00:05:41] So I think that's the first hurdle that we have to go get over generally. And it takes a special person, you know, I think to really change that mindset and be open to learning and not the, it wasn't invented here syndrome, you know, moving forward. But hopefully we've done our diligence and you're partnering with us or with a private equity fund because you feel like they can accelerate value. You know, you spend so much time, as most people often say, you spend so much time working on or in the business. You haven't worked on the business for a long time.

[00:06:11] Secondly, you know, one of the things in maybe it's because my baseball background, but I'm more into the softer side than a lot of my private equity brethren. What's not, you know, it's yes, numbers matter. But the softer side and dealing with an owner entrepreneur that maybe hasn't dealt with the emotions of selling a company, right? It's the it's maybe the only time in your life that you're going to do this. And this is like your baby. This is your identity. It's who you are.

[00:06:40] And now you've given up control. So how do I work with that group? How do I ensure, you know, that this person, this group is going to be a good steward of my business is going to take care of my people. People, I've made this leap of faith, but I don't know. And now oftentimes, too, they haven't told their employee base, you know, up until the transaction actually happens. They're scared about what might happen with the employee base. And then, you know, we're introduced and it's, oh, my gosh, who are who are these folks?

[00:07:08] You know, who's who's the big bad private equity group that I hear about in the news? And it's it's not like that. I promise. Right, right. I mean, maybe it is for for other companies and who's to say it's good or bad. But but that's not your brand, it sounds like. And and I don't think it would be an appropriate way to approach like lower middle market. Right. These they're a little bit smaller companies. And, you know, I didn't even really think about that.

[00:07:36] The emotional toll that goes with it, I think, is really important because it's not just about convincing that the numbers look good. Right. It's about convincing that you are the right people to sell to. Yeah. Yeah. And like you're like you said, your livelihood, your identity, it's a big deal. So people dedicate their lives to building these businesses and and they want to make sure they're in good hands.

[00:08:01] So it is. And I can connect with them a little bit in that respect. And what I would tell you is in my former career as a baseball player, when I was younger, when I was in college, I was playing professionally. That's who I was. That's how I identified. That's who people identified me as. And then when that was, you know, when it was time to hang them up, it was really like, who who am I now moving forward? What do I want to do? What's my purpose? What do I want to get into?

[00:08:27] And I feel like there's a little bit of that with the owner entrepreneurs for such a long time. That's what I've been known as, as a business owner. So that's, you know, the initial hurdles that we have to get over. And then some of the other things, you know, are really in that business owner in their institutional knowledge that they have in their head.

[00:08:48] And oftentimes in the lower middle market, they don't have the depth and the breadth of the management team that you would in a hundred million, $150 million, $500 million a year business. So the business owner wears multiple hats, you know, and there's risk associated with that. So as we invest in the business, as we invest in the people and the resources needed to grow this business, how else do we make it?

[00:09:14] It doesn't sound good, but how do we make that business owner less important to the overall success of the business? Because, you know, you hear about all the time, if you get hit by a bus, you know, what happens to the business, you know, the next day? Can we live to fight another day? That institutional knowledge that they have, the roles and responsibilities needs to be more permeated throughout the organization rather than the risk of relying on one individual. And we see that a lot in the lower middle market. We'll be right back.

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[00:10:46] Back to the show. Interesting. Okay. So, in addition to this shift in mindset at the leadership level, I think that there's also this importance of balancing culture preservation with change. So, how do you navigate this very delicate balance without disrupting the momentum of the business?

[00:11:10] You know, I think it's one of our biggest challenges, but being in the lower middle market for 25 years, you start to develop an appreciation for culture and how much it means to these different businesses. Not only to the owner and, you know, who's going to be a good steward of my business, but more often than not, the people, the hourly workforce really take pride in the business that you work for.

[00:11:34] So, when we assess culture and when any great company that has a great culture, it's where you're, you know, if you look at a Venn diagram and the three circles intersecting, it's where the mission and vision, the employees, and the customers all overlap. And any business, you know, that has those three overlapping, you know, is really a great culture and one that we want to be a part of moving forward. So, I think it gives the employees purpose.

[00:12:02] It gives the owner's purpose and then they care about their customers. So, it translates into customer service, you know, operational KPIs, on time and delivery. You know, all those things, you know, matter so well. As we talked before, culture is sometimes difficult to measure. Yes. I can't even describe how important it is to a business. So, when we look at it, we look at it as more of an evolution versus a revolution. As more people think, hey, private equity is coming in here. This is what they're going to do. This is what we're going to change.

[00:12:33] And I think at any point in your life and in business, when there's a event that happens, a big event, selling your business or having someone acquire your business is a huge event. Right? Change is expected. I don't want to say it's accepted, but it's expected.

[00:12:56] During that point in time, any company in the employee base are maybe more willing to accept change during that time period because mentally they're expecting it. I think as you get further along outside of that acquisition period, it becomes less malleable. It just solidifies a little bit more. So, what we try to do is implement change. Like I said, more of an evolution than a revolution where we're going to do some small things first.

[00:13:24] Whether it's just instituting something more like a traction program or like EOS or scaling up. Something like that where we're creating some accountability, but we're not changing the foundation of what this company was built on. We used to have a rule that we always said, first rule of thumb is do no harm. And I think that still holds true today. You don't want to screw up what you just bought because you bought the business for a reason.

[00:13:48] And if you understand what those reasons are, you're more apt not to change those. Rather, augment those and hey, how can we get better in different areas? And I think that's the biggest thing with culture. And then more than anything, as we spoke about before, there's always a fear that comes with it with being acquired with a private equity firm coming in. And it's really a fear of the unknown and it's uncertainty.

[00:14:18] You know, am I going to have my job moving forward? Are my benefits going to change? Is my compensation going to change? Is my role going to change? There's all these what if, what if, what if, what if. And I think that's what caused the anxiety. That's what causes the consternation. So I always like to say communication sets expectations. But clear communication manages expectations. And managing those expectations throughout this process will help calm a lot of those fears and then really develop engagement with your employee base.

[00:14:48] Yeah. And I know that in previous conversations you and I have had is we're coming up with a plan for that. And so, yes, so maybe after after you listen to this episode, reach out and we'll tell you how to do that. But I think that one of the other pieces of this puzzle to talk about and to really focus in on is leadership burnout.

[00:15:12] Because I know that we've talked that about after an acquisition, some leaders may lack the urgency to push forward. Right. I mean, if I'm a leader and I just sold my business, I'm like, finally, my break. I'm going to Hawaii. Right. It's like I'm going to the beach. Goodbye.

[00:15:30] But, you know, how do you identify this and kind of reignite their motivation, especially when you as the purchaser need them the most. Right. In this in this period. Yeah, it's a it's a fair question. It's a it's a good question and one that we continually learn. Right. Yeah. I mean, personalities and people, they're all wired different. You know, I have five children. Each one of them are wired differently. So nature versus nurture. Right. Right. It takes a.

[00:16:00] A unique individual, I would say. To be motivated after you might have put twenty five, fifty million dollars in your pocket. And we are asking for more. We're asking more out of you maybe than you would have given prior. You know, but I think it's a function of identifying that person and identifying what is their true motivation. If it's monetary, it's not the right person for us to partner with.

[00:16:28] You know, they they've got enough money now where that, you know, monetary instead of yes, you know, they should be paid commensurate with the responsibility. Yes. And we want alignment of interest. We want alignment of interest where they're continuing to have ownership of the business moving forward. And we also, by the way, expand that ownership to the executive management team to create more alignment of interest. But it's about that personal competitiveness where you want to continue to win. You know, you have a legacy in this business.

[00:16:58] You know, you don't want to fail. Now you have a partner, maybe for the first time in your life where now you have a sounding board. You know, and maybe it just provides a deep breath of fresh air. Not that I want to go to Hawaii, but for the first time in a long time, now I have some help. You know, we we look at a thousand businesses a year, a thousand, and we invest in maybe two or three. Now, do we want to pretend? And I think, you know, sometimes there's an issue. Maybe it's ego.

[00:17:28] Maybe it's pride of a private equity fund going in and saying, hey, I've looked at I've invested in 150 different businesses. I know what to do here. Yes. You know, to a certain extent, yes. But it's never that business. There's commonalities in every single business, but that one is unique and may have one or two or three unique things about it. And that owner entrepreneur knows every single one of those skeletons in the closet. A hundred percent.

[00:17:55] Why not have them there to continue to help to continue to grow, you know, with them collaboratively. Right. And be collaborative partners. And now collectively, we can look at the strategy for the business. Maybe the handcuffs are off now for the first time. You're not signing your name and the bottom line anymore. You have another group that's willing to risk their neck in order to do it. And now you make investments in the business that are more maybe growth oriented rather than lifestyle oriented. And I hear you. And that that makes a lot of sense.

[00:18:22] And I and I I also kind of think back to your earlier comment of the emotional toll that goes along with this type of transition. If we were to think more structured based strategy based 60, 90, 120 day plan post acquisition is is the normal process to to really come up with. So can you walk us through what do these plans really look like and how do they set the stage for long term success?

[00:18:52] Again, we we continue to evolve and, you know, look at the best ways to implement it. Now, you know, as I mentioned, every business is unique. There are commonalities. So when we look at a business, we look at, you know, really four pillars to growth or four buckets, whatever you want to call it. And we look at sales and marketing. Financial. Operational. And then your organizational health.

[00:19:15] And every business has you can look at any business and put a number associated to that in terms of where they rank today, where they rank before and where we want to get them to in the future. So each different bucket would be at different levels for every different business. Some would be, you know, further ahead on the operational and financial side, you know, in organizational health. You know, maybe we have to really do something here about culture and aligning alignment of interest within that business or mainly for us is typically on the sales and marketing side.

[00:19:43] How can we augment, you know, their technical capability, their operational success, marry that with a great marketing plan, strategic sales. So each 60, 90, 120 day plan would reflect where they, in our estimation, our assessment, collectively with the business owner and their management team, where do they sit today in each one of those buckets. More often than not, the first 60 days really is about stabilizing the business and trust building.

[00:20:12] Not just with the business owner, not just with the executive team, but it permeates throughout that organization. So we will hold a town hall. And again, communicate, you know, this is what we expect, you know, from the business. Is there going to be change? Yes. I would lie to you if I said that there wasn't. But it's going to be positive change. Will there be more accountability? Yes. But we're going to give you the resources needed to succeed. And if we don't, then it's our fault.

[00:20:42] Right? So that's the first 60 days. The next 90 days are more, you know, around the operational side of the business, process efficiency. So we're going to use those 30 days to work with the executive team, work with the operational team, to really identify low-hanging fruit for things that we need to do. And by the way, it's too many times that we get this as private equity cuts their way to profitability. We do not.

[00:21:07] More often than not, I can't say it's 100%, but generally, private equity invests in the business for organic growth and acquisitive growth. And it's going to be both. You know, there are going to be times where cost cutting is necessary. You know, if the business isn't performing, maybe a business owner can just withstand that storm. But now when we have banks and investors, we're going to have to right-size the organization. Our hope and plan is that we continue to put that strategic growth plan in place. We're executing that within that.

[00:21:35] That focuses on investment in the people in the organization. The 120 days after acquisition, that's when, you know, if you've done appropriate diligence, I really don't care how much diligence that we do. You know, I mean, we can get ahead, Felicia, as much as we can early on in the process. You don't know what you bought until after the acquisition. You really don't.

[00:21:59] There was one person that I spoke to recently who said, you know, after the deal is done, the floodgates open. And I couldn't imagine saying it better because I feel like I could just imagine what that looks like of, like, information. I also think about, like, Elon Musk going and dropping, like, the kitchen sink. I don't know if you've, like, seen that, you know, but he, like, drops a kitchen sink after he buys Twitter and now acts. But I just think that it's, like, an interesting turning point. It is.

[00:22:29] It's revealing. And, you know, my analogy is selling your business and partnering with a private equity fund or a family office or whomever is like a marriage. But prior to that acquisition is in the dating phase, right? I mean, everything's new. It's great. And you tend not to know everyone's on their best behavior. Right? Everybody's on their best behavior. And guess what? Marriage is hard. Anybody that's been married would tell you that.

[00:22:56] And I told you I use, you know, 50% of marriages end in divorce. The other 50% end in death. You know, marriage is not easy. And it's not easy partnering with somebody, especially with a private equity fund, too. You know, where there may be differences of opinion. You know, but if everybody is rowing in the same direction, you may not agree, but you're going to lock arms and we're going to do this together.

[00:23:18] So that 120-day plan after it's more about growth and acceleration, setting that strategic growth plan in order to hit our five-year, three-year, one-year, and then goals and then accordingly rocks. Right? Everything is set up to do that. Where are we going to be in five years? And by the way, that's communicated throughout the organization. I think some of the biggest change that we see in privately held businesses in the lower middle market is they were not privy to any information at all prior to the acquisition.

[00:23:48] They have no idea how big the business is. Is it $10 million? Is it $25 million? I have no idea. You know, and we're communicating that with them because they are all part of this growth. You know, we're not doing it from, you know, MCM and the executive team. It takes everybody, right? It takes a village. We'll be right back. Back to the show.

[00:24:11] That's interesting because, you know, when I think about the type of entrepreneur that are in these types of roles and how you talk about, you know, this is now someone that has to kind of think more broadly. It's not just about the product. It's not just about taking on the most challenging, you know, customer needs. It's about thinking about more strategy and collaborating with leaders that you may not normally collaborate with. Decision making is completely different, right?

[00:24:40] It's not just with one person, you know, or you're saying, you know, we need this. I'm going to go do X, Y, and Z. But it's about saying, oh, actually, I need to delay this decision. I need to wait for the next board meeting. I mean, that's I feel like I feel like that's a really big challenge. Like it's a really big challenge from going to one scenario to from one scenario to the next.

[00:25:03] I mean, collaborating with other stakeholders is not really a muscle that you exercise as an entrepreneur trying to go up breakneck speed. Right. You're 100 percent correct. I mean, there's there's so many stories and anecdotes that I can share and one I'll share, although I'll make it PG from the owner. But but but I asked him, I said, you know, Jimmy, can you show us your your budget for for next year?

[00:25:30] Because budget, I'll show you a budget. I made more money this year than I did last year than I did the year before. There's your budget. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's just the way that that he thought, you know, formalizing a plan or an operating plan prospectively on what we want to accomplish and what's there. It was always more reactive than proactive. And he was extremely, extremely successful in doing that.

[00:25:57] So it's some you don't want to lose that entrepreneurial spirit, but you have to put some structure and process around these. You don't do not want to kill that that business owner spirit. That's what got him there in the first place. But now give them the help and resources that they need. Some different perspectives. Right. Oftentimes, just a fresh perspective being in the business so long is often, you know, kind of opens up ideas, you know, for other growth opportunities in these businesses. I also think about, you know, as the business grows.

[00:26:28] I could only imagine that you probably are thinking about who we're going to level up, you know, to grow the business, to start teaching others as we ramp up hiring, you know, eventually as you go through your 30-60-90 plan. But, you know, how do you find the right leaders within the organization? You know, how do you assess existing talent to determine whether someone is really ready to step up into a leadership role? Because I feel like this can get a little bit messy.

[00:26:56] I know organizations who I've worked with where if they have no plan in place, you know, they'll say, oh, this person has been an IC. They've been here, you know, for several many years. They're super loyal. Let's make them a manager. But is that really the right, I mean, you know where I'm getting with this, right, Bobby? Like, is that really the right decision? They want that role. They're skilled. They know what it takes, right? So all of those things from my perspective come up as questions.

[00:27:25] But, you know, what's been your experience? It's unique and it's especially unique in the lower middle market. And, you know, more often than not, we always want to hire from within. It's that person that has that hunger, that's familiar with the business, but also more often than not, has those ideas for success or change that they feel need to happen.

[00:27:49] Because I think, you know, in any business, you know, the further you get towards the top of that pyramid, the top of the organization, your roles and responsibilities change where it's more strategic overview and you're not in the weeds anymore. You may lose touch with, you know, how you grew that business in the first place. And then oftentimes where it gets further, you know, generally is with the customer base and the customer service. Generally, a VP of sales and marketing, you know, tends to be somebody that we would look to first, a VP of operations.

[00:28:18] Those roles and responsibilities would be ones that we try to identify first. So anytime we get within that organization, so you talk about stabilization and the trust building in the first 60 days, it's also identifying, you know, even through diligence prior to that 60 days are the key players in the organization. Not only ones that we need right now, aside from the entrepreneur, but who can we elevate to your point of scaling up, you know, who can we level up right now within the organization? So we use different tools.

[00:28:48] We use the predictive index, you know, as one just to see, you know, it's needs and behavior based, you know, so that's not necessarily, it's more on the softer side. But what we see lower middle market entrepreneurs sometimes have a different profile than lower middle market private equity backed presidents or CEOs. Sometimes it's a little different. You know, we can narrow it down for the type of growth and scaling that we want to do.

[00:29:18] Oftentimes, you know, narrows itself down to two different types of people. Not always, you know, but generally there's two different types of people. So we would, you know, look at that as a first place to start. And then to your point of, you know, are they the right person? Where we see it more often than not in this part of the market really relates to nepotism with the founder and then maybe the son or daughter in that business. And they may be, you know, the absolute right person.

[00:29:48] But do you know that they're the right person for the job? Or are they in there because they are the son or daughter of the entrepreneur? And what we like to see in those situations, because we come across them a lot, believe it or not, is that they didn't grow up in the business. They were somewhere else beforehand. You know, they flew out of the nest. You know, they did, you know, five, 10 years somewhere else.

[00:30:15] Gained a different perspective and brought that perspective back to the business. And then it's more of a level playing field. But those are the things that we have to assess. And then, Felicia, what do you do if the son or daughter isn't the right person? And you talk about a cultural change and shift. I mean, that is dramatic to any organization.

[00:30:35] Yeah, I could only I mean, I have had my share of working with, you know, side by side clients and so forth, family businesses. And I almost feel like it is where a lot of private equity players play, because, you know, once a business goes really well and they're successful, of course, you know, if they become a parent, they want their kids to follow the same footsteps. Right. So it's interesting.

[00:31:03] I think family businesses are interesting and it sounds like they're quite common. I also want to talk about organizational health, because I also feel like that is a definition that a lot of people may differ around. Like, what is organizational health? What does that look like to you? Can you kind of explain what these assessments entail?

[00:31:30] How do how are they conducted and how do you use the results to really create meaningful change? Yeah, I mean, you can certainly explain it like that. But I can't give in here. Well, there's different perspectives, right? Right. There's a different perspective.

[00:31:45] But like I said at the beginning, you know, when we find organizational health of a business and we try to do an employee engagement, part of that helps us understand is that mission, vision align with our employees and our customer base to have that fulfilling culture or that cultural soul that a lot of businesses have. You know, so we would generally bring in a third party.

[00:32:06] We have, for lack of a better term, not necessarily a playbook, but a lot of things that we try to uncover within that organizational health assessment from autonomy, development, job design, organizational support, leadership in the organization, supervision, training, inclusion, teamwork, all those things that we can measure. And, you know, that third party then is in the reason we hire a third party and we don't want to do just a.

[00:32:36] So we've done this before and we learned. I don't know if it's because we were being frugal and didn't want to spend the money, but bringing a third party, I think, provides a different dynamic. It almost and it is anonymous. Right. So you're not allowed to put any name or anything. It is conducted by a third party and they are in person interviews. Interviews. OK.

[00:32:58] As much as we can with as many employees as we can, to the extent that it's a larger organization than some of it, you know, we would relegate to email. But we want to see that person and we want to see body language. You know, if a question becomes uncomfortable, they're not sure to answer. We want them to push. Right. And I think in doing this, what you'll find is the opportunity to create change. And the sooner that we do this, we talked about cultural change at the beginning. How do you do it?

[00:33:27] And you toe that line. Doing this employee engagement, I think, gives us credibility and then trust because, you know, you have two eyes, two ears and one mouth for a reason. So if we're listening, if we're really taking it and not espousing what we think we should do for the business, but really understanding it from the people that are within and the changes that we can make to be a better organization. We find those, whether we're creating an employee voice team, whether we looked and did a compensation.

[00:33:57] I mean, you know, often than more often than not, compensation is number one, right? Always. But it's also about the work-life balance. It's about the experience. It's about working with your friends, career development, all those things. So if we can put those things that we hear and it could just be something small. You know what? We want to have more teamwork. You know what we're going to do? We're going to have quarterly pizza parties every time that we hit our goal. We're going to grill out in the summer. We're going to have an employee crisp. You know, some things like that that are just small that, you know, create that culture.

[00:34:27] We have one of the businesses that we invest in that I think has one of the best cultures. People are awesome. They have a great accent too, a Northeastern accent, which, you know, they just can't say they're ours at all. But they're, you know, some of my favorite team to visit. And you know what the unique thing that they have? They have a full-time chef on staff that now we subsidize and pay for, but they have breakfast and lunch together every day. Think about that.

[00:34:55] Most people are going out to lunch or eating alone at their death. They're having breakfast at home. Think about not only the camaraderie, you know, that you have by sharing meals, but also just the impromptu conversations you can have about a customer or about the business in general. And then getting to know them more. So I think with the employee engagement side, it's trying to measure that, you know, while it's not necessarily measuring culture, it's measuring your employees' engagement, whether or not, you know, they really believe in this business.

[00:35:25] And giving them those small wins, knowing that their voice is being heard, I think is extremely important. Well, Bobby, I think you have plenty of knowledge and experience to be on this show just to prove you wrong from what you said in the beginning of this episode. So thank you so much for being here. I look forward to speaking with you again soon, and I'm excited to just learn more from you. So thank you so much. I would love the opportunity.

[00:35:54] And then when we collaborate, maybe that's the next podcast we figure out a way to. Right, right. We're coming back on the episode and talk about what we've learned. So thanks so much. And I hope talk to you soon. Thank you for having me. If today's episode captured your interest, please consider sharing it with a friend and leaving a review.

[00:36:15] To learn more about how CPO Playbook can support you or a leader you know with executive coaching or organizational transformation, visit us at cpoplaybook.com. Your support as a subscriber means the world to us. So thank you for tuning in. I'm Felicia Shakiba. Let's connect on LinkedIn. See you next Wednesday.