Why New Grads Are Getting the Job Search Wrong With Michelle Schafer

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. You're tuning into the Careering with Cameron Podcast, your safe place to ask all the dumb questions about finding a job. Hey, everybody. It's Kevin Cameron with Careering with Cameron. And I just want to throw out there, this episode is going to be awakening to many of you in terms of job search, regardless of what level of career you're at, but specifically to folks who are starting their career.

[00:00:31] If this is something where you know somebody, you have a child who's going through this phase, you have a friend, you have maybe a cousin or a niece or nephew, subscribe to our podcast. Go ahead and share this with them. It's very difficult speaking as a dad to have this conversation with your own child, but podcasts like this will be very helpful.

[00:00:55] So without further ado, I'm here with Michelle Schafer, and I am really thrilled that she was able to join us today. So she is a professional coach. She has a book out currently. She has some tools online to help people who are in that. I mean, you need to find a position. And so without further ado, I want to jump in here. So Michelle, tell us a little bit about your background. Oh, right. Thank you so much for having me on the show today, Kevin.

[00:01:20] Yeah. So it's really interesting. I mean, I've been coaching for 11 years, but I really joke that at age 46, I finally figured out what I was going to do when I grew up. You know, that's the kind of question we get, right? You know, when we're teenagers, like, what do you want to do with your career? And I mean, I never would have imagined way back when that I would get into coaching. But really, it's life experiences that shape you, you know, and it's kind of following a thread.

[00:01:47] And it's a planted seed for me. So for me, I was restructured twice, which meant that I lost my job twice. It was not my choosing. And I have a friend who's a really, she's a really great friend, and she is a professional coach. And she just said to me one day before I lost the second job, like lost my job the second time, she said, I never understood why you didn't get into coaching as a career.

[00:02:13] And at the time I said, Oh, I love what I'm doing. I was working for a national cancer organization. And I was supporting volunteers who were delivering services to cancer, you know, patients and their families. And I said, Oh, I love what I'm doing. I, you know, negotiated a part time job, you know, so I could be at home with my kids when they were younger. And then I lost that job. And I never forgot what she said. So you know, that's a message to me. And I share this with everybody.

[00:02:41] If somebody has ever told you in your life, I think you should do X. Maybe there's some truth to that. So absolutely, you know, I looked into it, I was networking to find work. And then I started to talk to coaches, like, what do you coach? And why do you do it? And what school did you go to and all of that. And that led me to starting my own practice.

[00:03:03] And so 11 years ago, I opened a career coaching business. And I specialize in career transition, which means I help people find new work, help people figure out what they want to do in their work. And you know, as they say, the rest is history. But it's really neat how that planted seed led me to today. It's so funny when you mentioned somebody said, you ever thought about coaching? I refer to that as the whisper.

[00:03:28] Yeah, because I feel like most people who end up finding that thing that they love. There are a couple whispers, many times. And either they're whispers where somebody says, have you thought about or it's an experience that you run into, that you're like, wow, I'm really enjoying this. This is fun. Exactly.

[00:03:50] And so I, you know, it's funny, as soon as you said that, I was like, I was warm, because I was like, oh, I know exactly what you mean. Exactly what you mean. Yeah. Well, it's funny too, like you can read something as well that also plants a seed, like a book that was really meaningful for me earlier in my career was called Answering Your Call by John Schuster.

[00:04:13] And what he does is he has you go through like different aspects and different times in your life where you felt called to do something and like what was behind that, you know? And it's really interesting that the early roots really for me with coaching, if I'm really, really honest with myself, came from reflections from that book. So, you know, thinking about things that we read even can be really meaningful for us. Absolutely. That makes sense.

[00:04:41] So you have kind of walked into and spent a good 10, 11 years in coaching. Yes. Let me ask you this. What do you love the best about coaching? I would say hands down, it's being a witness to somebody's progress, quite honestly. Like I'm inspired by that, but to see when somebody comes in and they want to work with me, oftentimes they're stuck by something.

[00:05:11] So in a job search context, it might be that they've been looking for work and are super frustrated or they're applying for hundreds and hundreds of jobs and not hearing anything. I'm sure we're going to get into that. Oh, yeah. And how you don't want to do that. Oh, yeah. But there's oftentimes reasons why people are feeling discouraged and frustrated. And that's at the start of working with me.

[00:05:34] And so when I see them progress and for some people, it's that they find a job fairly quickly after we do start working. That's progress. But even for others, it might be that they were terrified to reach out to somebody and have a conversation about a potential job. And to see that through our time together, that not only were they able to do it, they felt more comfortable. They felt more confident.

[00:06:04] I've even seen some people who didn't want to do that kind of outreach and they actually start to like it. Can you believe it? And just to be witness, to bear witness to that kind of progress is so deeply rewarding to me. It really, especially the term you use is blocked. And I think that's a great definition for it in terms of being able to just take the lid off and see where they go. Absolutely.

[00:06:32] Well, give somebody a safe space to be able to do that too. I mean, you mentioned earlier. Yeah, talking to your kids is really hard because, yeah, do you know, I've got two boys. They're 19 and 17. And I totally get it. They would much rather listen to somebody else. Right. Yes. You know, being able to give them that safe space. I really believe that people have the answers within them. They just need a safe space to explore and access those reflections.

[00:06:59] Yeah, that's a great analogy as well of as kids listening to your parents at some point becomes maybe less of a crutch, we'll call it. Oh, yeah. And then I think there's a point maybe where you go back and listen to them a lot more and wish you had more information from them.

[00:07:18] But I think also the concept that other people are experts more than yourself is something that I think changes through coaching where you start to realize like you have the answers. The coach is not a wizard. Yes. The coach is just able to walk you through it so that you have the space and the safety to be able to say like, hey, this is this makes sense. Exactly.

[00:07:46] Well, I mean, you know, I I will talk to people in the beginning, especially if they've never worked with a coach. And that I would say that statement really encompasses the vast majority of people that I do work with. But I'll talk to them like what what is coaching to you? So we talk about what coaching is and what it isn't. And of course, the big thing that it isn't is, you know, and I'm very direct about this.

[00:08:10] I say I'm not going to sit in front of you and tell you what to do because, you know, let's say I were to do that. And then, you know, you follow the thread to a job and then that job didn't work out. You're going to come back to me first and say, but Michelle, you said this would work out. And guess what? It was like the worst thing I ever did. So, you know, yes, everybody needs to make their own decisions. What I can do is, you know, there's providing resources. Coaches love to ask questions.

[00:08:40] That's something my boys, you know, it drove them nuts. Like, Mom, why do you have to ask so many questions? I get that too, right? And I think because, you know, the answers are within you. I'm just helping you get in touch with what those answers are. But, yeah, it's not up to me to tell anybody what to do with the next chapter in their life.

[00:09:03] It's to give them information and help them build their own awareness to follow the path to what would be right for them. But in that distinction is so, so important. I've had some people who, yeah, it just wasn't a fit to work with them because they wanted me to write their resume. They wanted me to, like, tell them the 10 jobs that they should be applying for. And that's not really what coaching is. But that can be really hard for people that are really needing that direction. Oh, absolutely.

[00:09:33] And that very specific support. Absolutely. So we talked a little bit before we hit that little red record button. And so, you know, one of the things that we started to get into, and I want to get into here as well, because I want our audience to be clear on what we're seeing. Yeah. What in the heck is going on out there right now? Oh, goodness. What are you hearing about, Michelle? What's going on? Oh, yes. I get that question all the time. Like, what's going on in the job market today? Right.

[00:10:02] And it's so true. I mean, the job market today is different than it was even two or three years ago. I mean, it's changed quite a lot. I mean, what I'm noticing certainly is there's a flood of applicants. So for any given job, it is not surprising for hundreds, if not over a thousand people to apply for the same job.

[00:10:27] A lot of people are using AI to write the resume, which is not what we want AI to do for us. It can be our thinking partner, but not to do the writing. So that means a lot of resumes are getting screened out because they just sound too much like everybody else's resumes.

[00:10:47] And people are just, they still, a vast majority of people still believe it's a numbers game where you have to apply for hundreds of jobs in order to get one or two interviews. And that's just not the case.

[00:11:02] So, you know, the strategies of like moving away from the, you know, cascading your resume, like across the job market and focusing more and being intentional about what you're looking for is becoming more and more of a strategy and engaging your network when you do so.

[00:11:20] And doing some outreach, the combination of like being intentional, knowing what your target is and engaging your network to help you get there is fast becoming the strategy to help you find work. And, and that's a big departure, Kevin, right? From the way it's been over the years.

[00:11:39] Especially taking somebody who has been used to either always getting tapped on the shoulder for a position or, or someone who has had experiences where the majority of their transactions through their life so far have been by filling something out and waiting to hear. Yeah. Yeah. So going. And it's so discouraging. Yeah.

[00:12:05] So going to our college students, I mean, that process is not the same as finding a job when they're applying to college. No. However, I think what we're sort of leaning into is that intentionality of being focused on, I mean, thinking about as a student, what goes into the college process to hopefully be accepted.

[00:12:28] Um, and the following the school and the research and the going on tours and the being, um, you know, being informed of the organization. Uh, but also knowing what they're looking for, um, to know one, are you a match? And two, are they going to want you based on the fact that you want to be there? So. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about like, how, how do we take that first step?

[00:12:54] We're now, we are about to finish up college and. And there's job fairs, there's job boards. Yeah. We can spray our resume. We can go probably go on LinkedIn for the first time ever. Um, we have to have the profile with like three connections. Um, you know, there's a lot of things that happen very quickly because it's not really something that we worry about until most people, until we get to junior, senior year of college. Yeah.

[00:13:24] Um, so we're a little bit behind, but, uh, in terms of where we could be, uh, but like, what, what do we do as, as, as helpers for other people's kids? We'll call it, um, to find that job. How do they, how do they, like, what do we do? Yeah. I mean, like, and there's, there's so much that goes into figuring out what you want to do as a next step. Um, because yeah, you're right.

[00:13:50] You're, you're going to be surrounded by the job fairs and the temptation is okay. I'm just going to, you know, update my resume and then I'm just going to start talking to pretty well, everybody. And yeah, that's good to do research. That's true. Sometimes you will have conversations that will excite you and other ones that just won't. And that, that like pay attention to what is interesting and what isn't.

[00:14:14] But I mean, a first step, even before updating the resume, even before doing the research is, you know, and, and this can be hard, you know, when you're a new graduate to, you know, think about doing reflection. I mean, I'm, you know, there might be some listeners, maybe are rolling their eyes like why you want me to sit and do nothing. I'm like, no, no, no, that's actually not what reflection is. It's just really like, I call it hitting the pause button.

[00:14:41] So as opposed to racing ahead, just think about, you know, if you are going to be honest with yourself over your whole college or university career, even back to high school. And combined with any of those like summer jobs, those early career experiences, what is the work that you really enjoyed doing? Like, what are the things that really did interest you?

[00:15:09] Where did you find that you got maybe a little bit excited about some of the things that you did? Like, for example, you know, Kevin, I know we were talking earlier about my son, my son just graduated grade 12. And so his prom committee, they were very involved in the community. They were building partnerships to raise money to lower the cost of the prom ticket.

[00:15:34] They organized like bottle drives and Valentine's Day, like flower deliveries and like all kinds of stuff they did. Well, I mean, it was clear that they really enjoyed building partnerships with other organizations and doing that kind of community outreach. So, you know, like the clues to the things that you really enjoy is quite far back. And also be honest about things that maybe you can do well.

[00:16:00] Like maybe there were people like at the restaurant that you worked with and they would come to you and they would ask for your help with certain things. But maybe the things that they ask for your help for were like really draining to you. Like, oh, yes, you did that. I mean, you could do them well, but maybe you didn't really like it. Yeah. Be honest with yourself about those things, too. And I find those start to form the early preferences for what you want to do next.

[00:16:29] And when you combine that with the skills that you have. So, you know, customer service, if you worked in a restaurant, like maybe it's even a bit of project leadership. If you, you know, like organized an event at your high school or at your college. You know, when you pair those things together, the things that energize you with the things that actually drain you, even though you do them well and the skills that you have. What you be amazed.

[00:16:58] Like I actually run those things through AI because, you know, along with your background and your resume, minus anything that identifies you and these career preferences. That's really what we're talking about here. You can actually partner with AI to generate some possibilities.

[00:17:19] Like what are some paths based on my education and my skills and the things I really like doing that I should just think about like looking into. And once that happens, I find now somebody's on a path like they're they're just more intentional. They're looking at something that isn't just kind of like out there. It wasn't like, oh, somebody just like told me about this.

[00:17:45] Like it's really based on things that are important to you, things that you enjoy doing. That's a first step. And I find that first step can help you when you do go to the job fairs to target the organizations that really offer things that might be really good fits for you and good matches. Absolutely. And I think there's another another piece also that fits in there, which is definitely using AI to help you sort of fact find in terms of what you could be doing. Yeah.

[00:18:15] But also friends, parents probably have jobs. Oh, yeah. And they're more than willing if you go to them and say, Mr. Cameron, what do you do? But maybe don't say it that way. Maybe more like what do you do for a job? Right. Right. So so I think that, you know, these are people who are real people that you have access to, that, you know, their personalities, you know, their families.

[00:18:41] They have probably jobs that they're willing to share with you what they do. They know why you're asking. Yeah. And I think, you know, what is a little bit sad and you don't realize it till after the fact is that your degree is not a Lego or a puzzle piece, I'll say, that fits perfectly into the job you're going to be in. Oh, yes. Like it doesn't really matter in terms of will your degree put you in that job. There's a few exceptions, obviously.

[00:19:12] But for the most part, doing exactly what you're talking about in terms of figuring out what am I passionate about? What do I enjoy? Yeah. What do I like doing? That may not be your first job, but at least you know where you're going. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's it's fascinating, actually, as we're on this topic, because so I I like to think of myself as a bit of a serial volunteer. I mean, I think I I really credit my parents with that. I mean, I've been volunteering literally since the age of 12.

[00:19:40] And so one of the things that I did this year was I went to talk to grade nine and 10 students. It was a program actually here in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, which is where I'm from. Sure. And and the program was to talk to literally just to talk to students about what you do and how you got into it. Like, how did your degree support you or not to get to where you were going?

[00:20:08] And I was really clear with students. I say, like, my degree. I mean, I think I take elements of my degree. I mean, my degree is an honors like Bachelor of Arts with an English literature minor, like a major story and a business minor. And but I mean, that doesn't lead directly to coaching, you know, but I wanted to impress upon them that, yeah, you know, your degree is not necessarily going to lead you to that bigger path.

[00:20:35] But knowing how to get there, like you said, like talk to people, especially talk to people who are in professions that are interesting to you. But even if you just want to do your research, yeah. Like talk to, you know, like like parents. And, you know, like you think of all the activities you're part of and there's parents that go and watch. Like maybe you heard through your friend like, oh, yeah, my dad or my mom does this. Like, yeah, maybe you want to talk to them.

[00:21:02] Like they are good research grounds to just see like, yeah, what do you do and how did you get there and what kind of path was there? And I think it's really important for new grads, especially to know because there's so much pressure, right, to figure out what your path is and to think, oh, I have to choose something that's going to support me for a long, long time.

[00:21:27] And I mean, I say to my kids, you might not even get through your degree without changing. And I mean, I'm seeing that right now with my older son, university for kinesiology for two years. He changed. He actually isn't going back to university this year. He applied for the plumbing program at our local college and he's just waiting to hear whether he gets in. It's a wait list of programs. Sure. But that's going to happen.

[00:21:53] And so, you know, follow like pay attention to the things that are drawing you in or the things that are turning you off. Because those are all clues that are going to point you in the direction of, you know, where you want to go someday. And I think like to your point, those conversations with parents are so invaluable. I think parents, if you're listening to this, you can do so much to prepare your kids by, you know, talking to them about, well, who do you want to talk to? Like maybe you can make an introduction.

[00:22:23] Talk to them about, oh, you're going to be talking to my friend about what they're doing. Like, what kind of questions are you going to ask them? Like prepare them for those experiences because, you know, just winging it is probably not going to serve you the best in helping you figure out what you want to do next. It's going to be a very quick conversation at that point because they're like, okay. Yeah, exactly. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. You know, it's also interesting. I think two things that come to mind.

[00:22:52] One is as we're getting closer to the holidays here, there's a lot of folks who are going to be facing, especially towards the second half of college, facing the like, so what do you think you're going to do when you graduate? Yeah. Which is a tough question. Big pressure. Wow. You're at a family environment with what are you going to do when you graduate? And it's a kind of a natural thing, I think, because previous generations were like, well, I'm going to graduate and this is the job I'm going to be in and this is what I'm going to do. Yeah.

[00:23:21] That's not really what we're dealing with now. So to both audiences, the parents and the students, maybe there's a way to rephrase that question. Yeah. And maybe it's like, you know, maybe it's something more along the lines of like, what do you think you're interested in? Is there anything I can do to help you? Yeah. Would be a better, a better approach so that they feel safe in saying, I don't really know. I had this class. I really liked it. I'm not sure what that means.

[00:23:49] You know, and, and I remember talking to, I remember talking to a coach like years ago and he, he does a lot of work with school like guidance counselors. To help guidance counselors support students who are asking themselves that question. And, you know, his reframe on that as well, like just to kind of build on this is what problems in the world are you interested in solving?

[00:24:16] And we have lots of problems in our world that need. That's for sure. That need this next generation to be behind and to help out with. And I find like, that's a really different question now. Like it's not, what's your major? Like what major do you want to have? Or yeah, like that big question. What do you want to do when you, when you grow up? You know, I told you earlier, like I'm 57 now at 46.

[00:24:41] I figured out that I want to get into, you know, a stream that now I'm not looking back. Like I really love this word. But you know, when you're, when you're in your late teens or early twenties and that's a really big question. So yeah. Thinking about like, if you look around the world, what are the problems that you want to solve? Like maybe you want to bring clean drinking water to communities that don't have it. I mean, I live in Canada.

[00:25:11] There are still communities in Canada that don't have clean drinking water, which is embarrassing actually. To say that, but you know, that it, you know, that might be a problem that somebody in school would really want to solve. And so then the question becomes, okay, like you want to solve that problem. So what are the different options? Like what are the different paths that you can do your research on? Not just online, but talking to people as a way of figuring out.

[00:25:41] Is this maybe something that I'd want to do? So when the question, when we ask different questions of our kids and, and certainly like young adults, it can lead to some really interesting places for them. Absolutely. And also being aware that the same way that our parents did not have the same trajectory that we do. No. I mean, these are people who had a job and stayed in the same company their entire lives. Yes.

[00:26:10] And we're like, that must be really boring. But, you know, these are, these are folks who are going to have multiple careers through their lives. I know. In total shifts. So exciting. So exciting. And, and really based on some of the technology for good or bad, we don't have any idea what that's going to look like. No. Oh, that's interesting. So to ask the question is like, sort of, let's just say for parents, sort of aging you by asking what they want to do when they graduate. So let's just say, how can we help them? Yeah.

[00:26:40] So that's, you know, that's one. And I think the other one really is to, to make sure that we're thinking about it from the perspective of the first job is not the last job. Yes. And so, you know, really, I spoke to somebody on our, on our podcast and he said, you know, the most important thing, I wish I could recall his name right this second, but we'll put it in the notes.

[00:27:02] Um, so his point was the job doesn't matter as much as the person you're working for and having a good manager that can like knows how to develop you. Right. Yeah. Somebody who you, you know, you, you get along with and maybe you look up to, but you, there's somebody that you respect and think like, Hey, this is somebody who really has figured some things out here. Yeah. That would be interesting.

[00:27:27] That's, that's probably a little bit more important than just being able to say, this is the role I want because I want to make this much money. Exactly. Because, you know, I love the pivot your son is doing and going from kinesiology to the plumbing. It doesn't matter what you're doing. You'll be able to, to support yourself, but what you won't be able to support yourself in is a career you hate because it won't last. No, it doesn't.

[00:27:55] And, and it's so, it becomes so detrimental to all aspects of your life. I mean, and, and so, you know, a lot of the people that I work with are like kind of mid career, a later career. And, and they're coming to me now because they're so unfulfilled by what they're doing. I mean, I remember Kevin, um, talking to one person and I would say he was probably in his forties.

[00:28:24] So for all your listeners, yeah, that's going to sound like really old. I'm sure. But, you know, like he was like, you know, middle of his career. And he, when I was talking to him about like, you know, I said, I asked him, I said, well, tell me, just tell me like, what are some of the things over your career that have lit you up in some way? Like where you thought, oh, I wish I could do more of this. And he said, you know what, Michelle, I've never been lit up by anything in my work.

[00:28:50] And I thought, God, like to get to like your forties and not feel good about anything that you've done. And it just like, it just calls it, you know, like it makes this conversation so important. Like, I imagine like, what would it have been for this individual that instead of just following the path to anything, because that's how he got into what he was doing. He just like, oh yeah, I'll apply for this. And then one step now led to another, but he never thought about what was important to him.

[00:29:19] He just accepted jobs, applied for jobs and he was getting them, but he wasn't happy. And I mean, that, that unfulfillment leaks into your relationships, how you feel about yourself. Like we can fool ourselves and think and say, oh, how I feel about my work. I'm going to put that in a little box and I'm going to close the lid and I'm going to put it away somewhere. No, I mean, it, it comes out.

[00:29:44] And so it is so important to just always at every step, especially like really early in your career, especially even when you're still in school, just pay attention to the things that you enjoy. And, um, and that, that is, it is going to, to point you in the right direction.

[00:30:05] And you're so right, Kevin, like having a mentor or somebody who is alongside you to maybe give you some new opportunities, to see the potential in you, to develop some skills, to give you some responsibility and be there to support you and see how you do. That's massive. And that's going to really support you in your career. Um, yeah, I can't, I can't say enough about having somebody like that.

[00:30:33] And, and that's somebody too, like, you know, think about, I'm sure all listeners can think of maybe at least one person, maybe it was a teacher or a professor or a boss at work that really helped them in some way. Like, what is your vision of the kind of leader you want to work with? Mm-hmm.

[00:30:55] That too becomes part of the intentionality, like align yourself up with people who are going to support you. They're going to have your back. They're going to develop you. They're going to challenge you to do new things. Um, that also is part of having a fulfilling career. And I would also add to that, pay attention to the things people come to you for. Yeah. Because you might be the expert in that without realizing it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:24] So, important to know, you know. Well, and, and pay attention to, to when people come to you about those things and you're the expert. Um, do you enjoy helping people with those kind of things too? Like, that too, like, feeds into the energy, right? No, I don't. It's terrible. Like, when, when people come to you and, and maybe, maybe they see you're a great problem solver. Like, maybe, maybe you, um, maybe you work in a store, like a retail store.

[00:31:54] And, um, you know, somebody, you know, in the team of people that you work with has had a customer that's come to them and they're complaining about something and they just can't seem to be pleased. And you can't seem to give them the right pair of jeans that match what they're looking for or whatever it is. But you're really good at that. Like, maybe you're really good at figuring out and asking the right questions and listening to somebody to know what they need and then to make the right kind of recommendations.

[00:32:23] Or maybe you're really skilled with just listening to somebody when they do bring a problem or a complaint to you and you're able to work through that, um, better than anybody else. Pay attention to those things that you do well. And of course, pay attention to whether you enjoy doing it in the first place. Yes. Those are all really early clues. Like, um, you know, nobody has to have it all figured out.

[00:32:46] Like I remember my, so my, I mentioned earlier, my younger son who he'll be, uh, 18, um, in December and, uh, he just graduated. He's in university now. Now he, he's decided to study business for right now. He doesn't know yet what he wants to do with that, but the, you know, the topics and the subjects interest him. So he's following that thread. But before that he had all these different ideas about what he wanted to do.

[00:33:13] So I remember when he was maybe 15 or 16, he thought he wanted to become a commercial air pilot. Okay. And, you know, I'm a career coach. So of course I'm asking him questions, but oh, why is that interesting to you? And, you know, all of that. And he was like really set on that. So I said, okay, well, you know, like, why don't you do some research? What do you have to go and study then to become a pilot? And like, we know some, we know at least one pilot, you know, like you can talk to that person.

[00:33:43] Then he realized, oh, if I want to have a family, maybe that's not going to be the best choice. I thought that's actually a lot right at age 16. And he decided, oh, maybe I want to become a nutritionist. He's very focused on the gym. After he talked to a nutritionist, he decided, no, maybe that's not the best fit for me. So like, you know, have the ideas and follow them. Like, you know, like don't dismiss the idea.

[00:34:09] And this can be hard because maybe there's people in our family who do dismiss the idea and say, oh, like being a commercial air pilot is like, why would you want to do that? Like follow the thread anyway. Do the research online. Talk to people. Make the decision for yourself because you won't know until you really give yourself the space to explore it. And they don't have also, they don't have to be somebody that your parents introduce you to also.

[00:34:35] I know I started us down that road, but I think, you know, there's this thing that the older people get made fun of called LinkedIn. And you can go on there and find what people do. And trust me, if you're reaching out and not saying, I want to sell you a copier or some new AI function and reaching out and really genuinely saying, I'm interested in what you do. I'd love to know how you got to that point. Yeah. They will answer every time.

[00:35:05] Exactly. Especially when your outreach is very thoughtfully crafted. You don't just send a note saying, oh, like, you know, really like to talk to you or like something really brief. Like give some context. Yeah. People will, will be responsive. And I think, you know, a big message for all listeners, regardless of your age, everybody is it is never too early to get on LinkedIn. My, my younger son is on LinkedIn now.

[00:35:33] I think part of it too is, you know, like his friends are now on LinkedIn, even in their first year of university and in a business program, he will eventually be encouraged to do that. But, you know, get on LinkedIn and, and yeah, get connected to people and, and, you know, you can, you can reach out. And I think like, I know when people reach out to me in a thoughtful way and they say, oh, you know, I, I've seen what you do. I, I, I really like this one post of yours. I'd really like to talk to you.

[00:36:01] Would you have like 15 minutes for me? Like make it really small, very manageable. People want to help other people. Um, and I think the vast majority of people want to help our next generation too. And people do enjoy talking about themselves. Yeah. Yes. That's why networking works, right? There's that. So, so you're not asking for something. You just want me to talk about myself? Absolutely. Okay. That sounds easy. And professors, professors can be a big clue too.

[00:36:29] Like, um, professors can introduce you to other people. Maybe there's a speaker who comes to your class and you want to, you know, see if they're on LinkedIn. Maybe you get connected with them. It's a great way of saying, thank you. Like, thank you for coming to talk to my class. Here's what I really enjoyed about your talk. Um, you share value with people and, um, and yeah, people, people want to be able to help. Um, I, I get that a lot actually, Kevin.

[00:36:59] Um, and this is with like my mid to late career clients as well, who are hesitant to reach out to other people on LinkedIn. They have, I'm going to call it a limiting belief. It's an assumption about LinkedIn or about people that stands in their way of actually doing something. And so their assumption is people are too busy. So if I send them a message, I'm not going to hear back from somebody. They're just going to say, no, I'm going to ask for their time. But why would they want to talk to me?

[00:37:28] There's all sorts of limiting beliefs that I just shared in those couple of statements. But, you know, I say, I say to people like, first of all, you never know until you try. Like, seriously, what's the worst that can happen? Maybe you don't hear from the person. Maybe the person actually says, sorry, I'm too busy. You're no further behind. You could be very far ahead. Yep. And, um, and the other thing is, you know, like people really do want to help.

[00:37:56] Like the, not every single person, not a hundred percent of our population, but I would, I would go on a limb and say more than 90% of people want to help. So knowing that, knowing that people want to help and that you're not going to, you know, be any further behind if you get a no, it makes the case for giving it a whirl. Yep. Try it out a few times. See what happens. Um, that's part of your research. Try it out and see what comes of it.

[00:38:24] You might be super surprised. And I would also add, don't build a reason why they're not responding when they don't. Yeah. We don't have any idea what they're facing. So you might, I might take a couple of messages. I was trained when I went from accounting into staffing that one out of every 10 actions I made would result in something good. Yeah.

[00:38:46] I think that number probably is lower now in terms of probably more like one out of 20, but, um, because there's just too much flowing information, but. So much noise. It does, that, that doesn't mean that there's 19 people who are complete jerks that don't want to talk to me. That just means there's 19 people who either didn't see it and have time today. We'll respond later. Um, so it's not a you thing. It's just, you're making the effort and hopefully they return it. And if they don't, and they're really important to you, you should message them again. Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:16] Yeah. I always say wait two weeks and then just give them some space. But absolutely. That's a great idea. Yeah. So, all right. So I think in terms of maybe some action steps here for folks that are getting started, we've given them like, let's figure out what you should do next. Um, let's figure out what you're passionate about. Let's try to pay attention to what's inside you. Um, what would you say your top three are in terms of things for people to be ready for that search? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:45] I would say, um, the first is to do ask yourself those questions that, that I've been bringing forward already earlier in this episode. So, you know, when you're really honest with yourself, what really energizes you? What's the kind of stuff that, yeah, maybe drains you? What are the skills, um, that you have that are going to help you, you know, in whatever it is that you do next? Um, I'd say that's the first step.

[00:40:14] You really need to have that as a good idea. Um, the second part is do your research. So, you know, I mean, we've talked like loosely about using like AI as a thinking partner to generate some ideas, but beyond that, actually talk to people, like do the research, um, reach out and, you know, talk to people about what they do, how they got there, what they've learned along the way.

[00:40:40] Um, what courses or maybe what degree they had in order to get into that work. So, so do the research for sure. Um, and then I'd say, you know, as a third, um, because you just really want to be ready, do start forming your resume, like as a way of, um, capturing, um, what skills you have, but also not just the responsibilities that you've looked after over the years.

[00:41:10] Tell a story here. Like what changed when you looked after certain things? What kind of things did you achieve? So if you, like I use the example of like working in the retail store, like, you know, on your resume, it's not just about, um, you know, answered customer questions and stock shelves.

[00:41:32] It's, you know, it's, you know, what you really are doing is you're providing, you know, maybe you provided an exceptional customer service environment. So they kept coming back to the store. You contributed to retention. So, you know, bring those kinds of results and those outcomes, um, and that value and impact into your resume. And that way you're going to be ready for, you know, whatever happens next.

[00:41:59] But I'd say those are, you know, three core things that, that everybody can, can start doing now. Yeah, those are great points. And I think they're quite helpful, um, to our audience who at this point is probably facing a lot of decisions and where do I start? So that's very helpful. Um, so we definitely have to have more episodes, which we'll, we'll, we'll definitely we'll put together because there's a lot more we can cover. But, um, how do people reach you, Michelle? Absolutely.

[00:42:28] So, so for those of you who are on LinkedIn, um, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn. I'm always, uh, uh, talking about job search topics. Sure. Uh, but more generally you can find me on my website, which is mshafercoaching.ca. Uh, you can reach out to me directly that way. And I've got a couple of freebies for all the listeners. So one is I wrote a book about finding new work. Actually, it's called cultivating career growth, navigating transitions with purpose.

[00:42:57] Uh, it is on Amazon and I'm offering a free chapter to everybody today. And I'm offering you, um, it's a document. It's a bit of a, you know, like tool to help you document, uh, your responses to the kind of questions that, you know, that Kevin, we've been talking about today. Like what are the things that light you up? What's the kind of leader you want to work with?

[00:43:21] Uh, there's questions that you can answer as a way of figuring out what your priorities and preferences are at this stage in your career. Uh, I'm offering you that for free as well. So there's a few ways that, that people can get in touch with me and, uh, also start planning for these next steps. Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that with our audience. Um, we'll make sure to also include that in the show notes so people can, can grab that. Um, please, please, please.

[00:43:48] You all know somebody who is going through either the first search or another search, share this episode with them, have them subscribe. You subscribe. Please give us five stars if this was something that was helpful to you or helpful to maybe be able to talk to that student at the holidays when you see them, uh, and have them feel a little bit more supported. Uh, but we really appreciate it. Uh, Michelle, it was so great to have you on. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. Thank you so much, Kevin. And we'll see you next time. Thanks everybody.