When Traditional Employment Stops Working | Start This Instead | with Haley Moss

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. You're tuning into the Careering with Cameron Podcast, your safe place to ask all the dumb questions about finding a job. Hey, everybody. It's Kevin Cameron at Careering with Cameron, and I am so excited today to introduce you to Haley Moss. So Haley is joining us because, well, frankly, we were basically networking and something we've talked about quite a bit around here with Careering with Cameron.

[00:00:28] And we came up with all these ideas on things we wanted to share with this audience. And frankly, there's about five episodes of podcasts that we can probably cover. But today we're going to start with something that I don't think we're talking enough about. And that really is how are our folks starting new businesses as entrepreneurs, especially for our friends that are in the neurodiversion space, where they are quite skilled and gifted at essentially coming up with an idea, a concept,

[00:00:59] something where they can work individually and really focus on, that they can turn into a company. And there's really not like a rule book. There's not an instruction manual. I guess we could say we have AI, but we don't really have anything to follow. And so Haley was sharing that she's involved with a program that's helping to build some structure to help people to get there. So Haley, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:01:29] Absolutely. So share a little bit about, well, I guess let's start with your background, right? So let's talk a little bit about you. And then let's talk about the programs that you're involved in. We'll kind of work our way through. Absolutely. So a little bit about me is I am proudly autistic. I was diagnosed when I was three years old. I went to law school. So I'm a licensed attorney in the state of Florida. I was in healthcare litigation and international law.

[00:01:56] I also am the author of five different books about neurodiversity and autism, which is really wild to say because I've been writing for well over half my life at this point. And I left my law career to do speaking and consulting and professional development around neurodiversity. And that's how I ended up really being an entrepreneur. Love it. I guess is how we say, even though when I look back, I've probably been involved in entrepreneurship a lot longer than that

[00:02:23] and just didn't think of it as legitimate entrepreneurship in a way. So I have been an artist. I've had a lot of different lives, I feel like. And I think that's a really cool thing is that you're not necessarily stuck in one way or another. And I feel like I am still figuring out in so many ways what I want to do or how to hone in all of my different passions into something that makes sense.

[00:02:46] So I think that's kind of a little bit of my background is for me, what I do as a marriage of professional and personal experience. I love the fact that you refer to them as lives. Oftentimes we hear chapters or segments, but lives is such a great term for a career because it really does have its own life.

[00:03:08] And, you know, perhaps that also kind of blends into as an entrepreneur, when you start an organization, you are to bringing it to life. And that is a very scary thing in terms of kind of getting started. So. Oh, absolutely. It's terrifying. Yeah. I mean, it's like, here's your backpack and there should be a parachute there. Get out of the plane. Let's see what happens. So it can be frightening.

[00:03:38] And so we were kind of covering, like, how do you how do you get started? Both of us having started companies in the past, like, how do you get started and what are the things that you run into that you just don't know about? You're not prepared. So, Haley, you had a couple that you had hit on before in terms of like, OK, I'm going to start a company. Like, what's what's next? What's first? Exactly.

[00:04:01] And I think a lot of us, especially if you're neurodivergent, you might not have had those same tools and experiences that will even lead you into that. I'm going to start a company mentality. You probably might not have been a business major. You might not have even gotten through higher education or went through college or post-secondary because of the different barriers to access and ableism to even get through that in the first place. There are so many ways that you end up in entrepreneurship.

[00:04:28] And it's not even as simple as, oh, I'm going to start a company. A lot of the folks that I've met throughout my life. And this is the funny thing is that a lot of support is like we want to help the people starting a company and developing a product. I'm like, well, a lot of the neurodivergent entrepreneurs that I know are Etsy sellers. They're artists. They are creators in some way, shape or form that just want to get their art or creations or passion out there and make a little bit of money or what have you.

[00:04:54] And when you look at those folks, I'm like they're entrepreneurs and they just don't realize they're starting a business or have a business, even if they didn't consider the legal structure of that or how to market it further or whatever it may be. So I think it's not even landing on how do I start a business or I have this company idea. It's how do I know what I want to do? How do I make it sustainable or have a structure that I feel like I can thrive in?

[00:05:21] That's kind of the big thing, because what happened with me and starting my business that I'm in now is I was still in my full time law career. I was being approached about public speaking and consulting. And at the time, I was great with it. I thought I had an opportunity. I was using a lot of my PTO to do speaking events.

[00:05:45] And I was handling a lot of the correspondence around events and consulting and other opportunities either before my workday started or once I got home. So I was basically juggling two very different jobs. Right. And hit that crossroads that I feel very privileged to have even hit of, oh, my gosh, I have demand. I'm very quickly running out of PTO. What do I do? And thankfully, I was only 25.

[00:06:13] And when you're 25, you're pretty fearless or at least you're not thinking as long term per se. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to see what happens. I can I'm going to take a year or two off. The worst case scenario, I have a law degree, which is a huge privilege in of itself. I will go back to law practice in two years and I can just write this off as an experiment and say I learned a lot and had a great time trying to figure out if my passion was worth pursuing to make money and be a career in of itself.

[00:06:42] And six and a half years later, I'm still here. So that was a big surprise to a lot of people that I know and myself included. I thought it would be a one or two year stint of experimenting and learning something new and taking advantage of momentum because the year before my story of being sworn in as an autistic attorney went viral. I had been writing. I had been an author before that, but that was just that catalyst that took this to the stratosphere for me.

[00:07:11] And then I had all these opportunities I would have probably never had otherwise at the time. And I was like, OK, I want to enjoy this moment. I want to take advantage of these opportunities and I want to help people understand neurodiversity at work now that I'm in the workforce and have more to offer. And I can also make a huge difference within my profession. And lo and behold, that's a business in of itself. I love it.

[00:07:35] And a lot of what I do is actually professional development for attorneys and I get to educate them on bias, on disability, on neurodiversity, and they get their continuing legal education credits. And I also get continuing legal education, too, which is keeping my license active. So it's really cool that there are ways to combine all these different things in those two lives, even though they do feel like very separate lives, because being a practicing attorney is a very different thing than running a business.

[00:08:02] Although they have a lot in common sometimes, but it's really fascinating to me to kind of notice there's that intersection and also very divergent paths all at the same time. Yeah. I also I think it's, you know, you made a great point in that when you start a business, you may not know that you've started the business because you're just working on something that you're passionate about.

[00:08:26] And oftentimes those passionate things are a stronger tap on the shoulder than we want to necessarily give them credit for. And I think many times and this may be a generational thing, but when we're going to college or we're going to high school and we're talking about what is our career going to be? Unfortunately, many times it gets pulled into like, well, are you going to make enough money there?

[00:08:51] And that steers people away from I can't go out on my own because I may not make enough money. What will I do? And I think it's kind of rare to find the people who are just so passionate about what they love, whether it be art, whether it be crafting, whether it be design, whatever it may be, that they're able to pull that together and say, I'm going to focus on this and make this into a business.

[00:09:20] And usually happening without them really knowing that it's a business. So, you know, that and beyond into all the pieces that get added in to actually create that business, whether it's technology or finance or sales, but all those things that need to happen to make the business successful. You don't really think about when you're going through it. You're just going forward. Absolutely not. You're just doing it. And the very first business that I had was actually in the arts.

[00:09:48] And I was a teenager that I was selling and donating artwork to charities. I was discussing potentially doing licensing. I was doing all sorts of different things with my artwork because at the time I was very much known as the autistic teenage artist. And a lot of my artwork was going to charities to help raise money and fundraise for kids and people with disabilities in my community. And that's still what my art does because I don't have the time necessarily to really devote to it.

[00:10:16] And I didn't want to make it my business because I've learned since not every hobby of yours should or will be monetized. I realized I find a lot more enjoyment in painting for the heck of it more so than, oh, my gosh, I need to create, create, create, create, create, create. So now most of my creations are limited to just when I want to decompress, do something that I enjoy or get to donate.

[00:10:42] So for me, it's that's the only way that you can buy my art now is if you were lucky enough to come across it at a charity gala or a nonprofit or an auction. Like that's the only way you're going to get an original piece at this point because that's not necessarily the business model I've created. But that's what speaks to me is I enjoy doing this because I enjoy it. And I would rather it benefit someone than become another job. That's amazing.

[00:11:07] That I feel like I would lose the joy in creating and enjoying that natural spark that comes with it than having this constant pressure to make, make, make and hone it in rather than a hobby. And I think that's something that's really hard for a lot of us who are creatives in particular is figuring out, do I want to do the monetization thing or will I lose the passion for what I genuinely care about and enjoy doing? Or how do I balance those two things?

[00:11:34] I think that's a very kind of fine line to tow for a lot of people. Yeah, I'm sure. I would also think it's a bit of a release. So it gets you away from the job and it's a place where you're probably happiest. I enjoy it that much more that it's not my job. Yeah. And it took me a long time to figure that one out because I did spend many years thinking I want to be a full-time artist. I want to make this into a career.

[00:12:04] I am very aware of that financial risk. And that's also partly why I originally was exploring those avenues when I was a teenager. And then when I was in college and beyond, I was like, this is probably not the smartest move to be making. I don't have formal training. I never did. I never – it's not that I never wanted it. It just didn't make sense for me. And when I was in college, I was like, okay, this probably isn't the way to go with formal training per se. And I know that art is so subjective.

[00:12:32] So I decided against it and realized, you know, I'd rather just do this for fun. I have a lot more fun doing this for fun than feeling like I need to create a bunch of stuff. That's interesting. You know, I love the fact that you kind of explored it and then took a step back and thought about, does this fit what you want to do? And came back to probably not, but it's still something you can be passionate about.

[00:12:58] I think that sadly for some, they get into that component of I really enjoy this. I'm going to make it a business. And then when it's not working as well as they would have hoped it is because some of that joy and passion comes out of the actual act of what they're doing, they put it aside and it just goes away. Okay. You kept it for yourself, which is really nice.

[00:13:22] What would you say if you could advise our audience and audiences beyond? When you're at that point, you have something you really care about, you're really passionate about it. You could make it a business or not. Like how do you sort of like pull that apart and decipher, is this where I want to go or not? I think you almost have to try to know. Okay.

[00:13:48] I found out by trying that when I was exploring selling and that I was trying to get my name in front of galleries and doing other things. And obviously we didn't have the resources that we did 10, 15 years ago that we do now. Because now I would have been like, okay, you don't need to do licensing. You can make all your own products. You can sell your own artwork on notebooks and pins and sticker sets, what have you. Then it was like you needed to go to Madison Avenue in New York. That was the only way that you would do those things. Right.

[00:14:17] And now you can just, you know, I can order stickers by the dozen and I can go print sticker sheets if I wanted to. And sell those. Yeah. And make a little web store. And I probably could have had some form of success or maybe I would have had no success with it. But time is a huge part of it. And then you're thinking, do I want to just be on a schedule with this? And I know even when I was speaking on the side versus when it became my career, that there's a very different schedule component.

[00:14:45] Not that, oh my gosh, this just rolled in my inbox. Now I'm thinking, okay, I am keeping track of many different things. I am keeping track of long-term projects, short-term projects. And I wear a lot of hats. I think a lot of folks who, especially in service-based businesses, more so than products-based businesses, you don't realize that you just wear so many hats. Oh, yeah. So I, the longest time would be like, I am everybody here. I am your executive assistant. I am the talent. I am the finance department.

[00:15:15] I am the legal department. I am everybody. Yep. And it was really odd because for the first couple of years, actually, even until very, very recently, people would be like, I can't believe it's just you. Or are you sure you don't have an assistant or someone? I'd be like, no, it's just me. And it was just me. And it was very, very strange. Because people always assumed you obviously must have a very successful model that you have a team underneath you and that you're managing a team.

[00:15:44] And for me, I never took that risk because I thought managing a team was something that would add in a skill set that I wasn't ready to develop and having to delegate. And I always said when I hit that point where it made sense to do so, I would happily do so. And I know when to kind of delegate tasks now or have contractors for things, the things that I just don't have the ability to do myself or lack of desire to learn. And that's okay.

[00:16:14] You don't have to be amazing at every single component of running a business to run a business. So one of my favorite fun facts is that I am not the person who should probably be editing a TikTok. But I know someone who can. And when you are in a position that you can hire somebody to edit a TikTok, for instance, you're in a great position. Awesome. Amazing.

[00:16:39] I can still get that brand recognition or content out, but I don't need to learn the skill set to do that if I don't have the time, energy or desire. And that's okay. That I don't have to know how to edit video perfectly in order to post videos, for instance. Like that's just things you have to kind of sit down and be honest with yourself about.

[00:17:02] Well, and also how much time are you going to spend figuring it out in comparison to what you'll pay to have somebody who can do it very quickly? Your time is still worth something. And I think a lot of us forget that. Yep. And are you better off spending money or spending a lot more time trying to figure something out? No, I guess you can figure it out and you can then replicate it. Maybe. But there is that line you have to walk between what makes sense and what doesn't in terms of what your schedule looks like. So that's fantastic. All right.

[00:17:32] So you shared, and I was like, what? You shared a program you're involved in with Vanderbilt. Tell us more. Absolutely. So I am a NeuroCorps fellow with the Vanderbilt Frist Center for Autism and Innovation. And what the Frist Center wanted to do was bring together a group of neurodivergent experts and leaders in our community in order to address issues around entrepreneurship.

[00:17:58] So every single one of us who is a current fellow, they are some of the most incredible people that I've had the pleasure of working with and knowing across the neurodiversity spectrum. All of us have entrepreneurship experience. We've all had our own consulting companies or tech-based companies. We've all done something. And we wanted to figure out how do we help make entrepreneurship more accessible for neurodivergent folks?

[00:18:23] And also a lot of their programs revolve around the sciences and being able to do all sorts of cool things. So one of the coolest programs that I saw that they were doing is they were teaching different coding and things to autistic people. There's so many cool programs. And, of course, supporting neurodivergent people at Vanderbilt. There's just so much cool stuff going on. And whenever I meet with my fellow cohort members, a lot of us are saying, you know, we had to figure all this out by ourselves.

[00:18:53] And a lot of entrepreneurship wasn't very accessible. And yet a lot of neurodivergent people are attracted to entrepreneurship. They're either very passionate people who have that creative bug or some new innovative idea and they don't always know what to do with it. Or they are someone who has been kind of pushed to the boundaries of what traditional employment looks like and feels like that they're burned out, that it's not working well for them, that traditional employment somehow is gatekeeping.

[00:19:23] So I know we can talk about this a whole other time and open Pandora's box on the many ways that traditional employment is sometimes inaccessible. And we will. Interviewing. I know we will. But like with interviewing and applications and then what's expected and then your manager doesn't like the way you communicate and then it's just one big kind of ball of stress and burnout and masking. You could be here all day, like kind of really going into the weeds on that. Sure. And entrepreneurship becomes a very attractive option.

[00:19:50] And the same thing with gig work, which I look at as gig work is almost kind of that sister cousin to entrepreneurship sometimes.

[00:19:57] So I have met neurodivergent people who might not want to start a business or have it, but they are driving rideshare and like that they are in charge of their own schedule and have control over what is happening and not necessarily answering to somebody who may or may not understand them or doesn't fit their working style or hours or any of those sort of more corporate rules and expectations. Hmm. Hmm. So it's interesting.

[00:20:28] I'm wondering if, you know, as you laid out, many times they are in a position where they feel that they're burnt out. The structure doesn't necessarily fit what they're looking for or what they need. Um, I wonder if that burnout and that sort of pain with the structure outweighs perhaps the risk that they may feel in terms of starting a business.

[00:20:58] Um, I wonder if it's, yeah, I wonder if it's, if that's something that, um, the risk doesn't feel as real because they're so tired of dealing with this process. That really doesn't work and doesn't fit them. I think that's part of it is that you might not even notice it or you're thinking I have to get out and it doesn't matter how I'm getting out. I think that can be a very real possibility.

[00:21:24] And yet the funniest thing for me, when I started my business, the thing that I missed most about being in law practice was the schedule. I missed the routine. Interesting. I missed knowing I had to be somewhere at eight 30 in the morning. I missed knowing I would probably be getting home between this time and that time most days, unless there was something urgent.

[00:21:47] Or I also recognize I was in a very, very accommodating and very welcoming practice that I wasn't constantly working on client matters until 11 PM. And I know many lawyers who do have that situation. So I realized I came from a very kind of privileged job as well. Like I had it very good in practice and I really enjoyed my practice, but I really did miss that structure and routine. And having to build it for yourself is really complicated and hard.

[00:22:16] So even one of those things now that I've started doing is building more structure because I realized I need it to be successful. So I know for me, one thing that I try to keep on the calendar is I try to keep one day a week that has no meetings whatsoever. That has been something I've done my entire entrepreneurship life because I know I need one day to just do administrative stuff.

[00:22:38] I need one day to either catch up on emails, to make content for the clients that I'm serving, to make sure I have all my presentation stuff, my consulting stuff. I need one day a week where I am not going to be interrupted by talking to people because I realize it takes more out of me than I think that it does. And then I try to have days where I just stack the meetings. It makes me more tired. But I know it's kind of that trade off. I need that one day a week.

[00:23:01] And if I have nothing else going on that day, I can either stop my day early or I can end up having a day where I am off completely. Which is why, ironically, I usually try to make those admin days either be Mondays or Fridays. Because if there is very little on the docket, then I'm like, oh, cool. Third day weekend. Exactly. Bonus. Love this for me. Yeah. I also think that you probably take some energy from those people interactions.

[00:23:28] And so it's not only sort of tiring, but it's also tiring because there's so much energy that comes in in terms of educating and meeting with people. It's a little bit of both. Yeah. I think you got it. That I love it. And I'm also just like, whoa, that was a lot of peopling. Like I look at peopling as a verb. Yes. Yes. And I love it. And I also, but I also, when I'm on the stage or presenting, that is an adrenaline rush.

[00:23:55] It is a very different experience than having a 30-minute planning call or discovery call to see if we should be planning an event together. That's a very different experience than Showtime. Yes. Showtime is the experience that is such a rush for me. It is my favorite because that's when those big connections happen. That's when people are like, oh, my gosh, I learned something that resonated with me. This is my personal experience. Or I have so many questions. I want to keep this conversation going. And thank you.

[00:24:25] Those are the moments that just make you realize what you're doing is worth it. Because I honestly would have done this even if it wasn't my career. That's how I feel about it. Yeah. That, yes, it's a career. But it's also something that I genuinely am that passionate about. And realizing that I get to make a positive change in other people's lives is such a gift and such a privilege. And I want to be able to keep doing that. And there's also the reality.

[00:24:52] And this is what I used to say in early sales pitches even is that there's a reality to it. You also have to help me keep my lights on. And lived experience is still expertise. You should be paying for that expertise. And that's especially true for disabled people. Because a lot of the times our stories are exploited. That we are told to be grateful for the exposure or how brave it is to share your story. And we get asked to work for free quite a bit.

[00:25:21] Even though we can be here all day long unpacking the massive disparities in unemployment and underemployment for disabled folks across the board. Not just neurodivergent people. And it's very strange when you are asked to share your story or talk about this for the exposure when it's about inequities in this very specific instance. And that's also a big part of it. It's not only I want to keep my lights on, but I want to make it better for the next person.

[00:25:47] That we shouldn't all be underselling ourselves and our value as human beings and the value of our stories and our hardships, our joy, our trauma, whatever it may be, just for exposure. And I know my artist friends have had the same experience where they're like, it's such great exposure. And I'm like, well, yeah. And a lot of my artist friends would always say, I can't pay my rent and exposures. My landlord doesn't accept exposure as currency. Exactly. And it's a very frustrating thing.

[00:26:15] I can't even go to the grocery store and ask them to give me a product for the exposure that's new on the shelf unless there is a samples person there handing out samples. And then I can't say, oh, well, can you give me like 50 samples? It's great exposure. Right. Custom. Custom samples. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Give me custom samples, please. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that is a great point.

[00:26:38] And I think, you know, it also, I couldn't help but think of how it connects back to your artwork and the fact that you are creating artwork to benefit schools. Right. So helping them with being able to provide for their students, that connection back to you saying, OK, well, everything has, you know, some type of price to it, some cost to it.

[00:27:34] But to have this. And I think that's a giant corporation should be offering to pay for your organization. And I think that's a small business owner, you have that discretion. I understand if it is a small community peer organization, for instance. Sure.

[00:28:00] So that's a small business owner, for those who are making, you have to pay for your own business. But I think there's one of the things that I can do for your business that I can do for your business. And I think there's going to be an advantage in a business that I can do for your business. And I think that's a big issue for you. And I think that's a big issue for you.

[00:28:25] that if I make the most of my one day here, I have a lot of potential upside to it. And that was a business decision worth making for me that, yeah, I could have maybe advocated or turned it down, but the connections that I made were worth way more than that quick monetary value of it. And honestly, those connections are folks that did lead to more exposure and work and paid opportunities

[00:28:52] that you have to kind of know when to say when, and it's not always easy. That I know for me, one of the biggest things that I still do is I know I have local organizations that I've known forever, then I will moderate panels for them, or I will do other opportunities or even figuring out how do I make this work for me is really big too. So I do think that the core of what I do is about giving back. I always have, but I also have to be pragmatic at the same time. It's a

[00:29:21] strange balancing act at times. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. What was the, what was the moment for you when you started the public speaking component? What was the moment where you were like, like the, if you have not been in a public speaking environment, the high that you're referring to is something that is a very strong emotion. When did that happen for you? And how did you know

[00:29:44] where to put that? So my very first public speaking opportunity in this life was I was five years old and my five-year-old self was unafraid of talking to an audience. I could barely hold a one-on-one conversation at this point in my life very well, but I was the flower girl at my uncle's wedding and I asked for the mic to give a toast to the bride in the groom. Oh, I love this. This is the most

[00:30:10] on-brand childhood story I will ever tell. That's the greatest thing ever. They let me do it. And apparently it was one of the most memorable parts of the wedding. I just said, congratulations and I love you. Like I just said those types of things. And it was really one of those things. I was also involved in acting and the only time I knew like public speaking could possibly be a career. I was asked to be a session leader in high school at a conference locally. And I was like, yeah, sure,

[00:30:37] I'll do it. And I was there for the lunchtime keynote. And the lunchtime keynote was a guy with a learning disability. I can't recall his name off the top of my head. I'm sure it will come to me later. And he was on stage. He was from out of town. He just told stories for like 45 minutes and had the whole room paying attention. Wow. And then was like, I got to go. And then was like gone after

[00:31:03] lunch. He didn't come back. And I was just like, I can't believe this guy just got paid to entertain us during lunch and make us think about something and make us laugh and make us think and challenge us. And that's literally what this guy does. Cause I looked him up when I got home and I couldn't believe this was like an actual career. Yep. And I thought like deep down, like that's something I would really enjoy, but I didn't think of it as for me until, you know, later on. And I also grew up and had the

[00:31:31] value system of I need my education comes before anything else. I got my first paid speaking opportunity during my third year of law school. And I was so afraid to take it because I was afraid of missing three days of class. But when you're in your third year of law school at the end, you also kind of have senioritis in the nicest way possible. And you're like, okay, I already have a job lined up

[00:31:56] after graduation. The bar is still eight months away. I let me see how many absences I've left for the semester at this point, because every class had a certain amount of absences you could have. And I'm like, you know what? I'll take it. Sure. I have nothing to lose. And I spoke to middle schoolers and high schoolers in a small town in Minnesota. And I had the best time. And it was so incredibly cool. And I didn't think anything else of it, really. And then once I got

[00:32:25] to practice and my story gained a life of its own, I was getting requests constantly. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to run with it. I'm going to hone my craft. I'm going to get better at this, because obviously, I didn't even have anything prepared. Like I started preparing for when I had my audience of high schoolers that day. But I didn't know anything. I knew nothing about the business of being a public speaker. I just knew this is something I would like to do. And I enjoyed it.

[00:32:52] And it was necessary. And there was demand for it. And then it took time to kind of hone the craft, what the topics were, how to present it. Like there was a lot more behind the scenes. And I'm just going to go up and have an adrenaline rush for 60 minutes. Right. It is a pretty good rush. It is. And I think a lot of business and honing in your craft is a lot like art. And one of my favorite business stories somebody's ever told to me is about artists, actually. It's about Picasso.

[00:33:21] I don't think this is a real story, but I like to believe that it is. Okay. And so the story goes is a couple is out to dinner at a restaurant and sitting at the table next to them is Picasso. And they go up to Picasso and like, wow, it's so great to meet you. And then they hand him a napkin and ask him to draw a picture on the napkin. Picasso obliges and then says, well, that's

[00:33:47] going to be $5,000 after drawing the picture. And they go, no way. That took you 30 seconds to draw that picture. That is not $5,000. And Picasso is essentially like, well, you know, it might've looked like it took 30 seconds, but that was years of studying art and painting and sketching and failing and succeeding and all this other stuff that got it to the point that you could see me draw a picture on a napkin in 30 seconds. And that always stuck out at me because we see the product

[00:34:16] half the time and not that training that goes into it because we think of that value of, oh, you're paying for 30 seconds of a scribble or 60 minutes on a stage or a 30 minute consultation and not the years of training and experience and honing in that craft to get to where it is. And that years of expertise that goes along with it. And the amount of risk that was endured to get to that place, which is a big piece of that too.

[00:34:42] All right. So I love, I love the story. I love the, the first speaking engagement at five. And I love the first, first paid one. So I want to make sure that we're also giving something back to, to our friends in this episode in terms of like, okay, how, how do we help you? The listener who now is like, okay, there is something I love. I'd like to do this. I think I want to try this.

[00:35:10] We're going to be, what, what would you say is the cheat sheet? What have we learned over the span of the last five, 10 years to say, these are the things you should do if you think you want to give this a shot and make it a business? I like the idea of kind of sorting it into buckets, whatever your thing is of hobby, side hustle or business. I think that separation is really key. And I have had all

[00:35:39] three. And I've told you about my hobby of art that I learned was not something I wanted to be my full-time job or business. And I also like many of us love side hustles. I have sold many things out of my closet over the years, trying to declutter. And I've also made impulse purchases that I couldn't return because they were final sale or they don't fit me or the styles have changed.

[00:36:03] What have you, I will sell them online. That is not something that I want to be a career. That is not something I want to be a full-time business. It's something just to, you know, get things out of my house and make it, you know, feel like a little bit less of a financial risk that I took by buying something that is no longer serving me so that I consider more of a side hustle. I don't market it. I don't do anything. I don't spend more time than necessary of it other than get thing on internet, set a price based on what other people have sold it for.

[00:36:30] And I say this because I have a lot of hobbies that that becomes a part of it, or it's just part of the hobby. So I also collect Pokemon cards. What do you do with all your extra cards if you don't have a local hospital or a bunch of children in your life and you have rare cards that you have three of and you're like, I don't want to have three of this card. You stick it on eBay. And then you have to know how to do that. But I also will joke about those eBay transaction type things because those moments are actually what teaches you entrepreneurship

[00:36:59] more than anything else. I learned more selling concert tickets to concerts that I couldn't go to whether I was in. So I've sold concert tickets several times in my life. I sold concert tickets in college because I accidentally bought floor seats when I realized I was not indeed equipped for a mosh pit. And I ended up realizing that I bought like six floor seats. And I also thought I had more friends than I did at the time. And I didn't realize that the concert was during finals week. Oops. This was fun. Oops. This was Lana Del Rey. So if you want me to date how old I am. All right.

[00:37:29] I was going to ask. Good. I remember I ended up accidentally with six floor seats. Okay. During finals week in Orlando. And we were in Gainesville, which is already an hour and a half drive at least. And I remember I actually was able to sell all of those floor seats at a profit. Wow. Which, and I'm like, I don't want to be a scalper. I don't want to be doing ticket sales, but I was able to sell all my floor seats. And I only sold my floor seats because I realized I don't want to be in a mosh pit. And I used the money from my floor seats to get, you know,

[00:37:55] balcony mezzanine seats that are actual seats in a chair for me and my BFF. And that's what we did. We went, we got home at two in the morning. We had a great time. And it, my mistake ended up, you know, giving us a little bit of extra pocket money too, to go get souvenirs and that I was able to reimburse for gas. I love it. In parking. So that worked out for everyone. Like you have to know those side hustle moments versus those. I am going to be a professional ticket seller. Like I, I never thought about it,

[00:38:23] but you probably have a lot of those moments and you probably have learned a lot more that makes you more equipped to start a business than you think. Because if you've ever sold concert tickets, if you've ever sold extra trading cards, if you've ever done any of that types of stuff, heck, even if you've had a garage sale before, you probably know more than you think you do. You have had to research the market. You've had to advertise, you've had to price, you've had to do all these different things. I'm pretty sure at the time when I did

[00:38:51] my concert tickets, I think I put them on a college Facebook group. I don't even remember what I did. I probably Facebook at the time. Yeah. Like all these little things that you learn along the way make you better equipped. And it's funny because all of your different interests and passions actually set you up more than you think they do. So that set me up in a way that I already knew, okay, I know how to

[00:39:13] market things in a specific way or how to position this. And I also think it's important to have a conversation about the financial component of it when you start your business or don't start your business. That I remember, even with my website, this is probably one of my favorite little business stories to tell as well, is my very first website was designed by my dad. I was 15 years old. It was

[00:39:39] pink and like cyan blue. It was not very readable and it was all in comic sans. But it was a labor of love and it got me very far. I couldn't wait to get rid of it probably by my first year of law school. And I attempted to, because I was 21 and realized I had long since outgrown that teenage artist, very, very bright, not very readable, not very accessible.

[00:40:04] And I remember I attempted over, I think it was winter break to like redesign it myself. And I was not indeed a very good web designer, but I tried. It was very bland. It was very boring, but it was serviceable. And I let that go. And I said, you know, okay. And then when everything popped off, I said, okay, when I get my first bonus, I'm going to invest that into an actual web designer. And that was exactly what I did. And I thankfully got that bonus at the right time

[00:40:32] because by the time people were visiting my website and wanted to visit my website, I had a real looking website. Good. Yeah. Like it was the right time. And that was kind of my thing. So you have to know like, what is the thing that you want to invest in? And knowing that there is that kind of financial component to it, that if you are a maker of anything, whether it's your paints, your brushes, your music, your whatever it is, that there's going to be some form of overhead costs that it's not

[00:41:01] always necessarily when we think of starting a business, we think of, okay, all the big costs are prototyping and hiring people. Nope. Hiring people isn't necessarily going to be your biggest expense. It might be down the line. It might never be. And kind of having that honest conversation of, okay, what do I feel comfortable risking? Because I know we talked a lot about risk was big. And I had a number in mind when I started that I felt comfortable risking

[00:41:28] out of the income that I had, the financial situation as in the support I did and didn't have from family and friends, what have you. I had a number that I was setting aside even out of my paycheck before I was starting to consider going full time. I was still saving a certain amount realizing, okay, this is my risk fund because I would like to build this. And I was building it on the side because it was at the time more of a side hustle than I'm going to take it into the business bucket. And then it hit a point that I'm like, okay, this is not sustainable as a side

[00:41:54] hustle. This is either going to disappear, be highly limited, or we're just going to turn it into a business. And I chose the business route. Sure. But I also knew I had a certain amount that I put aside at the time that I was willing to invest into it as a business that I was willing to invest into yet another website, branding assets, what have you, things that I knew that I couldn't do myself and use that as kind of my pot to play with there. And of course, you know, living and what have you

[00:42:22] was a whole separate other thing, but you know, I think it's just being very realistic about those things. Yeah. So we're getting close to the end of our time, but let's do three things top of mind, three things you wish were taught in the class that's not taught for entrepreneurs. So we know there's not a class for people that say like, I'm going to start a business and here's your class you should go to. But if there was, what would be three things you wish were in there?

[00:42:52] Very basics about structure and the immediate things you need to get started, like how to sign up for your business or how your corporate structure, do you want an LLC, an S corp, what have you, how do you even do that? How do I fill out that paperwork through my state? Very easy mode. How do I do this stuff to a good, probably build the team of the people you probably need or advisors and what have you. So whether it's a good mentor, whether it is a good CPA, which I think any of us

[00:43:20] who have had a business knows will absolutely save your life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That like, like figure out your people there and then how do you, what are your goals? So this is something that I wish that I had sat down and done earlier in my career. Is that really making one of those goals? Like, where do you see this in a year from now? Where do you see this? Like what, not necessarily go write a formal business plan. I had no idea. I don't think I actually sat down and wrote a formal business plan, which is what I heard that is what they teach you in business school. I never did that.

[00:43:51] I probably wouldn't know how to do that without AI at this point. And I know that sounds bad because I never had to do it. And I thought, what would success look like for me in a year? And what do I want to accomplish in the next year? Like very realistically. So you write down all these things, write down those goals and put down ones that are actually reasonable. Don't say, start your maker business of I'm selling artwork and say, I am going to be licensed and my artwork

[00:44:17] is going to be on a Coca-Cola can. Right. In the first year. Like that's probably not realistic. It's a great dream. Put that down somewhere, but don't use that as your measure of success in your first year. You might get there. You might not. If you do, that's incredible, but you have to be a little bit realistic. And fair to yourself. And fair to yourself. You have to give yourself that shot. So I know some of the goals that I remember writing down and that were like, I want to give a TED talk. I didn't know when I wanted to give a TED talk, but I knew that was on my list.

[00:44:45] And I was supposed to do it in year two, I believe, but COVID happened and I didn't get around to it. I think until 2023. I think that's right. It's been a minute. Yeah. Life moves really fast. I have no idea what happened. It does go fast. But I do remember when I did finally get to stand on that red circle on a stage. I was so proud that I did it. And it was one of those opportunities that I

[00:45:15] had written down of that would be a great thing for me personally. It would be a great thing for and within my business, even though obviously that's not a stage where you go to sell things to people. It's a really great opportunity to learn, to be coached, to hone something down to 15 minutes. So even just having those realistic kind of goals and write those down is very doable because even if I and I knew that was realistic for me, because if you look at the variety of people who speak on

[00:45:43] those stages, they are anyone from entrepreneurs to students to fitness instructors to world leaders that you have seen the gamut of human beings, kind of like a jury of your peers, essentially, that have been on the TEDx stage in some way, shape or form. So I thought that was very reasonable to put on my goal list because I knew there were all sorts of different people who have made it onto those stages, not just someone who's just starting out

[00:46:10] or someone who has 10 years of experience. So I think you have to be realistic, but also don't be afraid to write down those really big goals for down the line that if your dream is I want my artwork on a Coca-Cola can one day, write that down. Just don't set that as the that is the thing that will determine whether or not I'm failing. Maybe write down a budget, maybe write down an income goal, if that's something that helps you. And also have a plan if things don't work.

[00:46:37] I know that's like, not what you want to hear. But have a contingency plan or an exit strategy of sorts. That if things don't work, if you run out of money, or you realize this isn't taking off, do I want to give it more time? Is my living situation demanding I get a job? Do I need to have a job while building this? Because sometimes that's a thing. I had a job while I was building. And before taking that, this is going to be my full-time leap. I just didn't know that that would

[00:47:04] be part of my plan. Sure. I don't think I would have what hit my business just saying, I'm going to start a business without a job. I think that having a other career and job made it safer for me to explore it before taking the larger risk. And I think you have to also be pragmatic for you. What level of risk can I sustain? If you have a family, what level of

[00:47:31] risk are they willing to take on with you? Because obviously you have different obligations if you have a spouse and children and a mortgage than if you're 25 years old and just leaving your very first real adult job. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It definitely varies. My obligations at 25 are very different than my obligations in my 30s and would be very different obligations if I had kids. Right. So I think there's a level of realism there of what level of risk tolerance do I have?

[00:47:59] And you have to have some. If you take no risk, you're never going to even start the business, let alone even open that three-point playbook you and I just talked about. Yeah. You're not going to stretch at all. That's very true. So you have to have some risk tolerance. It's just how much risk tolerance do you really have without possibly imploding other people's futures if they depend on you? Mm-hmm. That's a big piece of it too, for sure. So I love getting to know people through the podcast

[00:48:25] and enjoy meeting with people. And I've really enjoyed meeting with you. And I'm sure we will, as we've already discussed, not to spoil the surprise, but we'll have other podcasts because there's several other topics we want to get to. But as I end every podcast that we do, what is your why? Why do you do what you do? I do what I do because I genuinely care about my community. I am very proud to be an autistic person.

[00:48:52] I have a lot of joy in the journey. It wasn't always an easy one, whether it was being a non-speaker and the different risks that I've taken, my family has taken alongside me, or even just going to law school and not having the accommodations that perhaps I should have advocated for and realizing, you know, you need to extend yourself grace. I think for me, the why was when I got to the workforce, realizing how many other autistic and neurodivergent people

[00:49:20] were being traditionally excluded or that we were expected to do so little or that we weren't capable really got to me and made me think, I want to help change this perception and I want to make things better than I found it. I want the next generation of people not to have the same obstacles that I had. And I think that was my why. And then as I've gone through this, my why has been, how do I empower other people? How do I make it so other neurodivergent people feel less alone,

[00:49:49] that they feel more empowered, that they feel like they can self-advocate better? And how do we build systems that work for everybody? Because it turns out the people aren't necessarily the problem, which is what we usually tend to think. It's that we're operating within systems that haven't changed in decades and haven't evolved alongside our understanding of our fellow human beings. So how do we make those systems changes is really what it comes down to. I just look at it for me as

[00:50:17] that speaking is my way to get people energized and excited and challenge people into changing those systems and making things that work better for everyone and make things more inclusive one keynote at a time. I love that. Fantastic. Haley, it has been so nice chatting with you. You've shared an awful lot of your background, given us a lot of ideas, a lot of help for our community in terms of how would

[00:50:43] you start a business? What would you keep in mind? So I think this has been very helpful to everybody. How do we reach you to get in touch with you for either a keynote position or a keynote opportunity, I should say, or just to say, hey, I really enjoyed listening to the podcast and you've really helped me along the way here. So how would they get in touch with you, Haley? Great question. The best ways to get in touch with me is you can always visit my website at haleymoss.com or you can also say hello to me on the social media platform that makes the most

[00:51:11] sense for you. I am very active on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram, on X and TikTok as well. I am on all the things you can find me and I'm always happy to connect with people in the way that they find most accessible to them. That is something that I value is making sure that you feel that you can connect in the way that makes the most sense for you. I love it. So if you've enjoyed today's show, please go ahead and give us five stars. If you feel as though this would be helpful to somebody that you know, and hopefully there is

[00:51:41] somebody that you want to share this with, you're already thinking about sharing it with them to help them along the way, please go ahead and share it. And please also subscribe so that you don't miss the next show that Haley and I are going to do together in terms of some topics that I think will be quite helpful along the world of employment. Right. So that'll be next. So once again, Haley, thank you so much. It's been so much fun having this conversation with you and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much. Absolutely.