The Narrative Intelligence Method for Landing a Job | Joshua Green

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. You're tuning into the Careering with Cameron Podcast, your safe place to ask all the dumb questions about finding a job. Well, thank you everybody for joining us. This is Kevin Cameron with Careering with Cameron. I am joined today by Josh Green, and I've got to tell you, I am very excited to bring his story to you as well as experiences. Josh, give us a little background on you.

[00:00:30] Yeah, sure. I think as I was saying earlier, I definitely feel unemployable in my life. I grew up relatively poor and was just constantly like I was the guy with the lemonade stand. I was the kid going to the local golf course, swimming in the ponds and playing up golf balls and running back. And I'd be like, 25 cents is like, make it 35 cents. They're like, I don't have a dime on me.

[00:00:57] It's like just constantly trying to find side hustles, money. And then, you know, and I grew up in Coquitlam, which is just outside of Vancouver, British Columbia. And then, you know, as it became of age, I moved to Vancouver full time. Nice. And yeah, just kind of got a degree in musical theater, was told that I needed a backup plan.

[00:01:22] And instead of being like, screw you, I listened and I got a degree in business and then started running my own businesses and was always like in between like the businesses and the exits that I ended up doing. I always had like employment somewhere in between.

[00:01:39] So what I love about that is I often find that people usually bump into what they're supposed to be at some point very early on in their life, but they have no idea that that's what that is. And so, you know, you bumped into it and we were talking about this the other day in terms of like you were like, hey, I'm going to go jump in the pond, grab some golf balls and sell them. Like, I know there's there's a way to make some money here.

[00:02:08] And I know that I'm capable of doing these things. And I can either say that's really hard. I don't want to do that. Or I can say I'm going to jump in the pond. I'm going to go get some balls out of there. I'm going to go sell them. And I'm going to be like walking away with some extra extra change in my pocket based on the fact that I took a few minutes to go do things other people won't do. You know, I think for most entrepreneurs, that's the story. That's the story most people don't see.

[00:02:37] Most people are like, oh, you should run your own company. That sounds so sexy. So exciting. Right. It's one of those things that like, hey, I can I can do this and and it'll be a piece of cake. And I'll just be, you know, enjoying the finer things in life. And my schedule will be four hours a day. And and that's that. Right. But it's not quite that for an entrepreneur. So I love that it began early and you weren't afraid of it.

[00:03:06] You were like, hey, this is what I'm going to do and jump right in. And I don't know how other people grow up, but I remember like as a kid. Not having a lot of money and seeing other kids and families with like and just being like, oh, how did you get those clothes and how did you get that Nintendo and how did you get that? And I was like, OK, well, I want these things. And it was always like we can't afford it. We can't afford it. We can't afford it. It was just drilled into me as a kid. And I was like, well, there's got like how and like.

[00:03:34] Like, I don't remember what compelled me to dive in the water. I'm trying. I try to think back. I'm like, why was I swimming? Like, I think I remember my brother was doing it. And so I was like, well, I want to do that, too. Like I want. And so like we were like, I remember we were diving in and then he had to go to school and I was like, well, I don't yet. And so like I was then I was like then I was just doing that. And I remember like just like jumping in and being like, cool, now I can afford candy at the 7-Eleven because like the 7-Eleven.

[00:04:03] And back in the day, I have no idea if it still does this or not. I haven't been in 7-Eleven in years, but it had like the candy in the rows where you could stick like your, you know, with the tongs and you could grab like you could collect a bag of candy. Oh, I remember those. Yeah. Yeah. And so and each one was like five cents a candy kind of thing. And so I would just like grab 10 of them. And that would, you know, because I was getting quarters left, right and center from all these people. And when I think back, I'm like they were probably just thought it was hilarious that there

[00:04:29] was like a six-year-old kid just with like goggles on and a snorkel just like just swimming in his pond. They're like, this is hilarious. Like I couldn't imagine them thinking like this is a good business idea. I think they just was like, this is hilarious. It's like try not to hit the kid with a four. And so, yeah, so that literally came out of, I think, because yeah, like I, my assumption is that most kids, a lot of things are just taken care of by their families maybe.

[00:04:55] And so they go through life, they get taken, they want something, they get it. And I'm not saying everyone gets this. Like I was also surrounded by other friends that were like, we're poor too. But it was like that necessity was like out of, you know, a lot of entrepreneurship and ideas are born out of necessity. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, hmm, here's a question. If you start to master necessity, is that like kind of the answer?

[00:05:25] In what do you mean by master necessity? So, so you faced necessity, right? And you were like, Hey, I got to figure this thing out. Um, how do I, how do I get what I need to get or be where I need to be? Yeah. Yeah. Like I, it's, it's like mastering necessity with the lens of curiosity is what I'd say. Like, I think a lot of people feel judgment and that stuff. Like, like for example, there's a lot of people in our community that go around and collect cans.

[00:05:53] And I think a lot of people look down on that and they'll sit there and go like, like, that's gross. That's, it's only five cents a can or whatever. And it was actually really funny because my mom, she was doing the, um, uh, I can't remember what the name of the service is, but she, Oh, um, like car angels or something like that where like they would, if you drove to a bar and got drunk, she would come with someone else and they would drive the car back. And so she did this during, she would do this during the holidays.

[00:06:20] And while she was doing it because she was going to so many bars and so many places, she was just always around a lot of cans. And so she just like got out of the car while she was waiting for her person and collect like 10, 15 cans at a time, just doing it already. And with less than a year, like within six, just like her six month stint of the holiday season of like sort of like November to like March or whatever it was, she had enough for her to go on an all inclusive cruise for two weeks.

[00:06:49] And so she was great at like, just being like, what, what's around me? What can I do? Not feeling like judged by the fact that like, cause like a lot of people, like I wouldn't pick up trash. And sure, some people's time might be worth more, but that's what she was doing at the time. She has like, there's no judgment around it, no shame. It's kind of just like, Hey, like this is what needs to get done. And I think that a lot of people miss out on opportunities because of like a story around like that's too this or it's gross, or I don't want to do that, or that's scary, or

[00:07:17] I'll be embarrassed or whatever it happens to be. And so I would agree that mastering the art of necessity with the lens of curiosity would be the answer. And so, so our audience right now is like, all right, what are we talking about here for the job searchers? Right. They're like, um, entrepreneurship. Like, yeah, that's an option for me. And that's an option for probably a lot of people who are at that point where should I retire? Should I not retire? I have this, this itch that I have another chapter I want to write for myself professionally.

[00:07:46] Um, but there's also folks who are in the job search mode. We were talking a lot about this, uh, the other day. And, you know, there's some things that we need to share with our job searching friends around how do you job search? And it's not just applying to a position. There's some things that are in place that we need to master around demeanor and around, I would call it spirit and personality.

[00:08:15] And so let's kind of get into a little bit of like what, what's discovered there. Right. I mean, as entrepreneurs, both of us, it's pretty easy to have a tough day and then go out and be like, right. Like you're mad at everybody. Nothing's working out. I'm not going to waste my time because this isn't going to work. All that stuff. This happens to job searchers. And I hadn't thought about it until we talked. Yeah.

[00:08:39] Like so much, like the mindset is so important for, for several reasons. Um, I think at this point, like, would it be, I'd love to just jump into narrative intelligence a little bit about what I teach, what I talk about. Yeah. Cause like, so there's this concept and idea that like we all have a story running, like our brains are phenomenal story machines. They're not really truth machines. They're not, they're not like actively looking for the truth. They're usually, it's like a confirmation bias. Like what, what am I thinking? And what am I believing?

[00:09:09] And let's validate that is what the brain's consistently trying to do. And so narrative intelligence, the way I like to explain it is that like, if you think of like a circle with a bunch of different bubbles in it, the first top bubble is the story that you have either some limiting belief or a story about your history or your past or the way things should or shouldn't be, or can or can't happen. That's the story. And then whatever that story is, is going to dictate your thoughts. Your thoughts are going to dictate your feelings. However you feel is going to dictate your actions.

[00:09:39] Your actions are going to give you results and your results will just naturally reinforce that story. And so if my story is the economy sucks, there's no jobs, no one's hiring. My thoughts are going to be like, oh, this sucks. It's super hard. The companies aren't hiring now. AI is destroying everything. I'm going to feel crappy, isolated, sad, broke. Like I can't do anything. And then my actions are going to be like, what's even the point of applying?

[00:10:07] I'm just going to do an auto apply to a bunch of different things or like, oh, like I don't even want to look for a job today. The results are going to be like, yeah, I don't have a job. I keep looking at the economy. I keep watching the news. And then that's just going to reinforce the story of the economy. So it just becomes this awful cycle that can really drag people down. And I was just reading, was it the luckiest man?

[00:10:34] I can't remember off the top of my head, but he has this really awesome part in the book where he has a bunch of people read the newspaper. And he says, start to finish, I want you to tell me how many pictures from front to back there are. And all the people that did it would go from front to back and they would do it. And depending on whether they self-describe themselves as lucky or unlucky would be the

[00:11:03] difference between whether they'd be successful or unsuccessful. Because on the second page, there was a giant picture that stated, stop reading. There's 43 pictures in this newspaper. And all the lucky people noticed it right away. And all the unlucky people just would just go right past it. And it's interesting. So when we're in that mindset of like, I'm unlucky, things don't happen for me, we tend to miss opportunities that are right in front of us.

[00:11:32] And so before I jumped into the job search mode, I really wanted to let people understand that like the mindset is so important through this. Because I remember whenever I was trying to, like it never seemed like difficult for me to get a job. The only time it ever felt difficult for me to get a job is when I believed it was like super difficult to get a job. Um, cause I've been there.

[00:11:57] I remember I went, uh, and applied to like, I've got like a folder of like job applications and all the jobs that I didn't really want. And all the ones that were like, and like, I'll just do, I'll apply on the, I'll easy apply on LinkedIn. I'll easy apply on indeed. And I'll just send off a bunch of resumes. And I have like maybe 300 applications that would go in like per like month kind of thing. Like I was sending out quite a lot. And people would ask me like, how are you sending cover letters for each one? And how are you, how do you? And I was like, well, for one, I treat it like a full-time job.

[00:12:27] I'm not, I'm not on vacation right now personally. Uh, but then also that like just didn't work. Like it just didn't work just sending application after application. And so what I started doing was like finding the companies that I actually wanted to work for and just going all in and assuming they were going to hire me in advance. Um, and this is where I'll give you the example of like the, the dog, like there's this company that was coming up and they weren't even hiring. They were just doing something really cool.

[00:12:56] He was taking dog food and, and cat food and kind of supplies and delivering them to people's homes, which was great. Cause the original idea was that like old ladies that are retired that don't really have the strength to carry kitty litter up five flights of stairs. That was the original, like, like build of the business. He was like, Oh, it's so difficult for my mom to get cat litter up. I'm always doing it. So let's, there's a market here. And so he originally did that and it turned into like huge.

[00:13:25] And so he turned his two Teslas into giant cats and dogs, just like in Dumb and Dumber. And I was like, this is an incredible business model. It's so good. How do I become part of this? So I like email them. I went to his house. Cause like he was in the newspaper. I was like, I gotta go talk to this guy. And so I just chat. Like I ended up, I was like, where do you get coffee? Where do you like, let me buy you a coffee. I just want to chat to you about the business. And he's like, well, this is where, and he like messages. He's like, I get coffee here. I'd love to chat with you about the business. And I go in, we have a coffee in the morning.

[00:13:55] I tell him all about myself. I tell him about how great his business is. And I was like, man, like, I'd love to like, like, how do I become part of this? And he's like, well, actually he's like, I'm trying to not be so involved in this. I was like, yeah, it's like unsustainable for you as an entrepreneur to be doing all of it. You need someone who's going to do this for you. And he's like, and so then all of a sudden, next thing I know, I'm like, I'm the manager of the company, like running all this stuff from him being like, cool. Like, like he was so stoked that someone was so interested in his business.

[00:14:24] And I, and that was when it like, for me, it switched to like, like a put yourself in any hiring person's position. And there's, there's two things that are really important about this. One, no one likes to hire. Hiring sucks. I've run a hundred percent. Yeah. Totally accurate. Yes. It's awful. Hiring is an awful job. And the second part is no one's good at it. No matter how much people think they are, you're guessing, you're guessing because you don't know if the person's lying. You only get like an hour.

[00:14:53] Sometimes they make you do like a test halfway through and you're like, I, and again, the people hate that. They're like, oh, this is my fifth interview. I've got to do this test. It's right. But don't, don't get me wrong. They hate it too. They hate this whole process. And so imagine you're sitting there, you're running your company, you're doing the day to day. You're concerned about payroll. You're concerned about, am I going to be able to pay everybody? You're concerned about the next gig. You're concerned about one of your clients may be leaving. And then this person just sends an easy apply application.

[00:15:21] And you're just like next, like, that's why it doesn't work. But as someone, if you think like, I love this company, I love what they're doing. I'm really interested in what they're doing. I want to go in and I want to get a job. That you're going to stand out if you just like talk to the hiring manager, whoever, email them, call them, go to the office. And I know that might be scary for a lot of people. Like, well, like, oh, like what if they, I don't know what the answer is for stop being scared. But I guarantee if you can muster up any kind of hook spa,

[00:15:51] any kind of like whatever it needs to be to get to that next space. And even if it's starting smaller, you will stand out 100%. So I would ask this question just to reinforce the being scared component. When is the last time you made any advancement in your life where you weren't scared? Yeah. Like never. Always outside my comfort zone. Always outside my comfort zone. And if you're not, you're bored.

[00:16:17] So you're going to be bored hitting that application button all day long. I can't emphasize this enough. Yes, it used to be a situation where, and I started in recruiting in this world, where we cut out the classified ad. We called the person if we could. We sent the resume to them. It was on a fax machine because we were out of stone tablets at that point. And so, you know, that was what the process was. And now it's not that simple. You have to want this job.

[00:16:46] As you said, you have to believe you're getting it and you have to truly want it. Because if you don't, it's going to be obvious. Yeah. Like so obvious too. Because like, again, like going back to the luckiest book where you're just like, you're going to miss opportunities. People are going to notice. Because you were talking about this. If you're in a room full of people in some kind of networking event and like you're just walking around like, the economy, am I right? This is just brutal. Like no one's going to want to talk to you. Run. Yeah.

[00:17:17] Run away. Yeah. And like, because like we've all heard it before. And the thing is, we're all feeling it. Like there's, it's not like, it's not an elephant in the room we're confused about. Like we do see inflation going up. We do see people losing jobs to certain things. Anyways, like one of my favorite things that I see around here in Vancouver, like one of the like busiest ice cream shops is Ernest Ice Cream. They're phenomenally busy. They have a lineup around the block in winter. Like doesn't matter. Like this is just phenomenal ice cream that people love.

[00:17:47] And like every now and then someone's like, it's overrated. And I was like, go tell that to the lineup. I really, it doesn't bother me. Yes. Yet, go three buildings down to like some random shop. And they're like, the economy, am I right? And I was like, well, what are they doing? That's so phenomenally good that you could be doing right now rather than sitting here sitting and talking about like no one's coming in the door. Like, yes, no one's coming in the door. And you can focus on that part if you'd like.

[00:18:15] Or you can focus on, okay, other people are getting through the door. Let's, what are they doing? Let's copy it. What can we do to copy that kind of idea? And it's like, it's some of the tiniest things that you can just start to adopt to bring things in. And even from the standpoint of going along the lines of like, hey, did you hear so and so got this position? At least that helps to sort of train you to have the glass be a little fuller than it might be.

[00:18:45] Yes. All right. So here's the question that I get a lot. And I'm curious your response. What if you're just in that place? Like you're in this crappy place. Do you not engage with people that day? Or is there a trick to sort of like that you've discovered to kind of get yourself out of that place and be able to go and not scare people? Don't terrify people with your downness. Help me! Yes. I'm dying.

[00:19:15] Well, the first thing, the first thing I would say is like, don't spiritually bypass. Like have your feelings. Feelings are like waves in the ocean. If you ignore them, you're just going to get smacked by them eventually, right? So like know that it's okay to be sad. It's okay to be frustrated. It's like really important to have an outlet for those kinds of things. Whether it's a therapist or a punching bag at the gym or like whatever, like make sure you have something to move. It's just energy. There's no good or bad emotions. They're all just energy trying to move.

[00:19:44] So like I cannot recommend enough you have some kind of practice to move it. A walk in the park on a regular basis. Something like that. Phenomenal. That's the first thing. And the second thing comes from cognitive behavioral therapy. It's a decision matrix. And that's where you take the thought, the limiting belief, the story, whatever. Like the economy sucks. We'll use that one because that tends to be the one that comes up a lot when people can't get their job. And then you choose a new one.

[00:20:13] You choose a new story. And often it's the opposite. But I just say a more empowering one. So the opposite would be economy is doing actually pretty good. Right? And right away people are like, that's BS. That's not true because I still believe the other thing. And it's like, just stick with me for a second. So you choose the limiting belief. This sucks. The economy is not doing well. You choose a more empowering belief. Like, well, for me, it's actually going pretty good. And you start to then look for pieces of evidence in that direction.

[00:20:43] And so you'll say things like, like you said, like, oh, well, Kevin just got a job. Okay. So that's true. The ice cream shop down the street has a lineup around the block. So people have disposable income that they're willing to spend on ice cream. Okay. Like, okay. Like, and you just start to do that. And there's a, an amazing clinical psychologist and neurologist out of the UK called Carolyn Leaf.

[00:21:08] She has discovered the exact amount of time it takes to build new neural connections and networks in the brain. And I'm not a doctor. So I don't know like the exact terminology, but she found out and discovered that it's about 63 days. Wow. So when you have these habits of this sucks, it's going to take you 63 days of finding new evidence until that like shifts in your brain and you start to more look in that direction

[00:21:37] that the cup is half full. But if you're used to looking at the cup is empty because of, you know, and it's not your fault. Like our trauma and the decisions of things in the past and the way things have happened will often do that. Like I, my friend has an analogy where he's like, you're like a kid with a backpack with crayons and paper. And every time something happens, you pull out your little map and you draw on it with the crayons. You go there, this is my map. And anything that's similar, you're like, I already have a map for this. Like, this is my map. And like, so you pull it out and you're like, Oh, another job. Oh, here's my map. Another application. Here's my map.

[00:22:07] Oh yeah. It says here the economy sucks. And so we have to like get rid of that waxy crayon and then move on to a new decision. And so that, that's what I say. So the first one, again, I'll break that down into two. Number one, have a way to move the energy so that you're not spiritually bypassing. And two, the decision matrix, limited belief, new belief, and all the evidence to support the new belief. Even if it's hard, like even like there's no evidence, Trump's this and the world's that.

[00:22:36] And it's like, just, just try, just like, just humor me and try to find some new evidence and do it for 63 days. Yeah. Why not? I think, you know, it's also interesting that a lot of times people go, well, I have to search for a job. I need to find a job. So I don't have time to focus on, you know, what I'm feeling. I need to focus on finding a job. And that means I'm going to do this for 22 of the 24 hours a day. And we know what that looks like at the 23rd hour, right?

[00:23:05] Nobody wants that application. Trust us. Nobody wants it. So like AI is like, nope, no thanks. You're outside of my range. Yeah. But I think, you know, one of the things that you bring up, and I think it's important to keep in mind is you're looking for a job and that's your job. But it doesn't mean that everything you love needs to be removed from your life. This isn't a penalty box. You're not being like scolded, right?

[00:23:33] Um, you're doing something that happens to 70% of employees at some point in their life in terms of having to find a job. So how do you like figure out how much time is too much time in terms of focusing on how do I feel? That's a, that's a great question. And I think it's going to be different for every person. And I think it comes down to like, like, like the feeling that we all have, like even at

[00:24:03] work, when people start to notice the burnout, like the, when you start to notice like this sucks, like you got to think of it like in work, like I did sales for years and I trained sales teams. And if you put people on the phones for eight hours straight with only like pee breaks, the last like four hours of calls suck. Like you can, you can hear it in the voice. They're not getting anything anymore. It's just like, it's just not there. And so we always, I, my teams, I told them like, I want you to like, does anyone here like to go to the gym?

[00:24:32] Does anybody like doing like, what do you like to do to split the day up? And so they would do like two hours of hard calls in the morning and then they would go to the gym for like an hour. Then they do another two hours of calls. Then they would hit lunch for like a good 45 minutes. Then they come and they'd hit the phones again. And then we do like some kind of fun thing. Like we go play pool or like we had to dart sport in the room or we'd like do something like that where we'd like come together. And then the last two hours, like, don't even worry about calling. You just crushed out six hours of straight calls. You've had all the breaks in between the last 45 minutes of work.

[00:25:02] Just spend the time like whatever, relaxing or whatever it happens to be. And so it's really important to like not, not overdo it because like you said, that 20, that 11th hour, like that, nobody wants that resume. Nobody wants that application. It's just, it's going to look like everybody else's that you just auto applied with. And it's the same thing at work. It's the same thing in anything that we do. Like you have to break it down. And I notice it in me when I'm like, oh, like once I have that, like, oh feeling, I'm like,

[00:25:31] just get out, go do anything else. That's when you go for the walk, go to the gym, go to a coffee shop, switch the environment up, like whatever it happens to be, like switch it. And like engineers do this all the time. They've got like, I've seen a friend who has like a timer on his desk and he just like turns it and it's his focus time. Once it's done, he's like, all right, next thing. And he's like, it's, it's no question. Like whether he feels good or bad, he's like, we're done here. Like it's great. Yeah, that is great. I love that. I love the timer concept as well in terms of, that'd probably be super helpful to people

[00:26:01] who are like sitting and applying. Here's my timer. I'm going to spend this much time on this. Then I'm going to walk away. Yeah, that's it. Because it is, it's a, it's a black hole. They get pulled into this thing and they're like 77th rendition of their cover letter. And, and it's probably was okay on the 22nd, maybe. So, so that, that's good stuff. Uh, talk to us a little bit about like, how do you work with people? Like what's the typical, typical methodology here? Like when I work like individually? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:30] Well, when I work with someone, um, I'm just looking to find out what like their biggest problem is. And so I work with like sales teams and leaders usually around like psychologically safe spaces or building their business. And when I do that, like the first question I'll always ask is like, cool, where do you want to go? And what's the problem? And you mean, you could look at that even in someone's like trying to apply for a job. It's like, what do you want to do? Get a job. What's the problem? And then they'll insert like, well, no one's hiring. And I'm like, yeah, okay.

[00:27:00] And then I'll go online and be like, well, it looks like 10,000 people are hiring. So like right away, I can tell that there's a, like a mental block here, a limiting belief, a story going on. So we'll deal with that. And then we can just go through the methods of like, show, walk me through your method. And they'll walk me through the method. And it's usually pretty similar to everyone else's method of like, well, I'm changing my cover letter. I'm applying. Um, like, do you follow up? And it's something like only like 10% of the people that I talked to will follow up.

[00:27:26] Uh, versus like, again, like I would say people are better suited to pick two companies. Like actually screw that. I'd say one company a day and just go like, forgive my, my language balls to the wall. Like, just go for it. Like go find out the CEO, go to the office, say, Hey, I want five minutes of your time walk in, you know, just, just go like, go put yourself out. Because that I think would go a lot further than 32 applications of you banging your head

[00:27:56] against a wall on LinkedIn, indeed monster, whatever, wherever you're applying. Um, and so, and it would be the same thing. Like when I work with someone, I walk in and the guy's like, Oh, we're trying to get our culture from here to here. It's like, okay, what's the problem? All these employees keep doing this. I'm like, okay, every single one. Well, no, not every single one, just these four. Okay. And like, you just, you break it down, but like, we have these stories and we get caught in them. And so we'll break that down. And like, what it ends up mostly being is like 80% mindset, 20% business fundamentals.

[00:28:25] And if we can stick with those 20% business fundamentals, that's fine. But it's that 80% of it tends to be, they're just caught up in like, this is not the way we did it when I was a kid. It's like, and that's totally fine. Yeah. Where do you think, like, I'm genuinely, I'm curious because, because this is absolutely resonating. Uh, and I hear it a lot in all conversations, not just like professional, personal, all that stuff. Where does that ability to like self-storytell come from? Like, how the hell did that start?

[00:28:54] It was like, they're a caveman who was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to really, really screw myself over. And I'm going to tell myself I can't possibly create fire. But he did. So yeah, but I need it. So I'll, I'm going to use this water and I'm going to try like, like gut through this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think like, I mean, we're, I think we're all naturally storytellers at heart. Like I, I speak publicly around the world and when I'm like, I love telling stories. They're my favorite thing. I love being told stories as a kid.

[00:29:22] If you go back to like any kind of group or tribe or anything that storytelling was the way we passed down history, the way we passed down everything was storytelling. And so I think we can get really caught in it in like a bad way, in a way that reminds us. And I think it comes like, if you read any Gabber Mate and stuff like that, like the stories are like something happened to us as a kid, we came up with a defense mechanism against that. And that's our protector. Like, even if you want to look at Richard Schwartz and any of his like IFS or parts therapy in our internal family systems, we have these parts and the parts have protectors.

[00:29:52] And those protectors are doing everything they can to protect us. And so I think there's like a strong protector that will sit there and tell us like, oh, um, yeah, it's the economy. The economy, it's not me. It's the economy. Like it's a protector, right? We're protecting our ego because it doesn't feel good for me to sit there and be like, it's me. I'm the problem. Yep. That's a really hard thing to face to think that everything I've done up to this point is my fault. Right? Like that's a hard pill to swallow.

[00:30:19] However, the sooner you swallow it, the sooner you can start to like make action steps of like, oh, wow. Like, okay. Like the feedback I got at work was that I wasn't very engaged. Okay. That's why I got let go. Or like, maybe it's not even that. Maybe it's like, yeah, we just let go of like this entire department. Like that happened to me before where like, it was just a sales thing. I was in a sales company. We were working there for a good year and a half. They're like, um, hey, we're just gonna no longer do this. We're, uh, we're getting rid of the sales team. We're switching to full marketing.

[00:30:48] And it was like, okay, like it's not personal, but like, it's easy for me to go down the personal train and like swap that out. So even like watching the, like these little things of the sound going in and out is such a good analogy for life. Like, like things go wrong and it's like, whatever, we're just going to keep moving forward. I'm going to click some buttons and get the sound back. And then we'll edit this out and move forward. Or we can sit there and be like, this isn't working. Screw it. Let's pick a different day. I'm going to end this one. I hate it.

[00:31:16] Like we can go down that path. There's, there's an in-between because it's not black and white. And then there's also like the, let's just figure it out. I'll pause and we'll figure it out. Yeah. And I think figure it out is a very valuable skill. Once you master it, figure it out. Maybe figure it out is actually kind of like the cheat code for, I'm going to be scared for a minute and I'm going to get through that feeling. And that's just where we'll be.

[00:31:44] Um, yeah, I think, you know, working with teams where you're there, they have their own sort of mental story that's going on through their head. Uh, and really when you like, you take a couple layers of that onion off and you're like, look what we found. Um, so, so I think that that happens probably with everybody, like sales, job searchers, no matter what you're doing, you're going to run into something that you've been told this can't be done.

[00:32:14] And I think there's people who love hearing that because they can't wait to do it right in front of you. And there's people who are like, well, they said it can't be done. So I'm going to go home now. Get my lunch. I'll eat it at home. I'm done for the day. Um, you know, you made a great point in terms of going balls to the wall and finding that CEO and talking to them and all that, all that stuff. And I think that the other point I would make with that is there's an awful lot of conversation

[00:32:43] for job searchers around. There's 3000 people who applied to this job. So I'm not going to apply to it because there's too many people already. But as you said, the cheat code that would be go apply someplace where there isn't an application. Go figure out what the company is you want to work for and talk to them. Because the other thing is they're not hiring right now. So they're not already miserable. They're probably going to be happy to hear from somebody to just say, Hey, I love what you're doing. Case in point. Exactly what you did. Yeah.

[00:33:13] I love what you're doing. I love the company. Yeah. That's so, I thought you'd like a genius hack of like go to companies that aren't currently hiring. Yes. Because they're not going to have hiring fatigue. And they're just going to be like, actually, like we do have this part that we're growing right now. And like, maybe, like maybe in three or four months, like maybe that could work or like maybe even right now, like let's start the conversation. Like that's that. That's actually really beautiful is just like start finding places that are that you just love to work at regardless of where they're hiring. Well, yeah.

[00:33:42] And they know you're not full of stuff because you're coming at them without a job description out there. So you're obviously pretty serious about the fact that you would like the company. And so it makes it much easier for them to say like, this is a real person. This is believable. It's not a bot. It's not AI. It's not any other stuff. They're a person who wants to talk to me about how I've gotten to where I am. And I would love to talk to them because I have pain points that I just haven't addressed yet because I heard hiring is terrible and I don't want to have to do that.

[00:34:10] So, you know, that's that's one of the challenges. But that I think helps makes it maybe a little less scary. But you still have to get over the fear factor of like, I'm going to get in touch with somebody who may not know who I am today. And I'm going to have to tell them who I am. And hopefully they like that person. Chances are they're going to like the person. If you're telling them that their baby's beautiful, they're probably going to like you.

[00:34:39] So, you know, that's that's a great way to kind of get to that. And it's something that you referenced in terms of figure out the company. Who do you want to work for? I would imagine it's probably the same when you're working with sales teams. Figure out who those companies are that you want to work with. How much more credible and believable would your sale be if it's with a connection that you're like, man, I love what you're doing. I can't wait to sell your product.

[00:35:06] Yeah, it turns out to be more like a partnership than like a sell, right? Because you're like, hey, we love what you're doing. How can we like make something between the two of us work? We see that you've got A, B and C. We want to like we, you know, fix S. We'd love to chat about it and just like have a conversation. Like one of the greatest books on just like having an open ended, unbiased conversation is the mom test.

[00:35:29] And so I really recommend if anyone's looking to like have those kind of conversations, what does it look like to just have an open ended conversation that isn't biased, that isn't like give me, give me, give me. Read the mom test. So, yeah, I think that that, you know, those things, they'll be able to overcome them will get you quite far in terms of your your career and or job search. There's probably both. Cool. All right. One of the questions I ask all our guests and one of my favorite questions is what's your why?

[00:35:59] Why do you do what you do? Hmm. Why do I do what I do? I do this because I love entrepreneurship and I've worked in corporate and I think that there's I've met too many people, maybe too many. I just met a lot. I've met a lot of people who are like one miserable in their job. They don't really love what they do, but they're just kind of putting it in there.

[00:36:28] And so they get frustrated. They get angry. They know they're not performing the way they want. And so I'm always trying to like help people find where they want to be. I'm helping people do the side hustle, create the job they want, the career they want, get the place they want. Because a lot of people end up phoning it in. They're just like, yep, I need a paycheck. And so they do the job and they get stuck there for a while because they, you know, they work up and then they get like, oh, all right. Don't don't raise my head too high. Don't want any light on me. Like, I'll just do my job. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

[00:36:58] This isn't a I'm not throwing shade at anyone. Like, if you do your job and you do it well and you put food on the table, there's a there's a nobility to that. And that's really beautiful. But if you dislike what you do. And there's like a something like, oh, I want to do something else. I really I want to help you create that. And so the amount of like I've built eight, 10 businesses and I've exited to and in that every single time I did that, I always had people being like, how are you doing this? Why?

[00:37:27] How did you create this from nothing? How did you sell? And so, like, I love teaching people business. I love teaching people how to start a business, how to come from nothing to something. It's like one of my favorite things to do because the amount of empowerment I see in people is is really huge. And also, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding. Like, like you said this earlier of like, oh, I'll just start a business. It's great. And whereas like the reality is like I was just at the summit scale up summit the other day.

[00:37:55] And these two beautiful women were up there and they built this beautiful business. And they were just there. So they were such lovely individuals. And they were talking about how like when we started this, there was a baby product line for clothing. And they also did it for women. And then they started a dude one, like beautiful dude, beautiful babe, beautiful bro, beautiful baby. I'm like, this is great.

[00:38:17] And they were both saying like the entire time her and her partner, she's like, she was working at a bar when we started for the first full year. And I was cleaning houses for the first two years while we had this business. So like they were both employed and they were doing their side hustle. And they loved every minute of the passion that they had, like their little secret business. And now it's like they're doing great. Right.

[00:38:42] And so seeing that like people like waking up, because like even when I worked in the restaurant industry while I was building my businesses as well. And I worked with a lot of miserable rest, like servers, kitchen staff, people that were just like just swearing, angry, drunk. And I was like, are you guys okay? Wait, this wasn't Josh Richards? Yeah, maybe it's the same situation.

[00:39:06] And it's like, but the thing was like, I ended up taking one friend who wanted to like, well, I really want to like start my own restaurant. I was like, let's walk down that path. And simply just them starting to build something on the side, even just talking about it. They came in the next day lit up. Yeah. Like they weren't swearing. They weren't angry because like they had this thing that they were like, once this is done, I got my, they were like Superman. Like they had a secret identity that they were like, I'm just going to be Clark Kent for a little bit. And boom, now I get to be Superman.

[00:39:36] Like it was really beautiful. And I've seen that happen time and time again from people who are like miserable at their job to once they have purpose or a passion or a mission that like all of that. And like I even teach leaders this with their employees when they're like, how can I get employment employees to be more engaged? And I was like, Gary Vee gave this to me a long time ago where he's like, sit down with your employees for an hour and a half and say, what do you want? And how can I get you there? But you have to have a psychologically safe space where they can be honest about it.

[00:40:05] Where it's like, someone's like, well, I want to make $400,000 a year. It's like, okay, well, you currently make 120. Do you want to make 400? Here's all the things I need to see. Let me help you get there. So come to me with a plan of how you think you're going to get here. I'll go over that. Boom. Next employee. Well, actually, I want to be the VP of this. Great. Here's where you are. Here's the steps that I need for you to get. And you do this with every employee. They're going to come in just jazzed. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because it's not just money for a lot of people. It's purpose. It's mission. It's title. It's respect. It's empowerment.

[00:40:35] And so there's a lot of other things you can do besides money to motivate employees besides a pizza party. And same thing. Yeah. And the same thing goes for people who are like want to be entrepreneurial or people who want to get a job.

[00:40:50] Like if you are struggling in the job market and you're really trying to get something, I think that finding the higher purpose besides another application click is going to just absolutely pull you in this like whether it's God or source or whatever you believe in. It's going to feel magical and you're going to wake up with a superpower. So I love giving people that superpower. That's fantastic. I can absolutely see how. I mean, I'm like, let's go. Just on that conversation.

[00:41:19] But it is like taking the lid off of somebody. It's really like taking the lid off and they're like, I can breathe. I can see. I know where I can go. That's amazing. I love that so much. So in terms of working with folks, how do they get in touch with you? I mean, the easiest way is my website. Just Joshua Owen Green dot com. Go there. You can work with me. You can check. You can watch some of my videos, some of my talks that I've given. And if anything resonates with you guys, like I'm super happy to support.

[00:41:49] I'm always open to just like an easy chat just to be like, hey, can we even work together? Because one of the I always try to fire myself well before I hire myself. That's smart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I think it's a bigger waste of time for both of us to be in a place you shouldn't be. Like because if you're an employer and you hire someone, you've stopped. You're like, cool. All applications gone. And you're really excited. And then three weeks go in.

[00:42:18] You're like, I got to get rid of this person. They've got like, oh, the drudge. Horror. Of like pulling all those resumes, re-putting the application. It costs money to put applications up. Like it costs companies money to hire people. And then go like, that's awful. And then for you as the employee, it's like you stopped looking. You might have told other jobs. You're like, no thanks. And then you've got any. All of that just sounds so awful. Just around that. The team around that. That's like, what are you even doing here? Exactly.

[00:42:47] So like for me, I will walk in and say, what's your problem? And how can I fix it? And like I'll let people just tell me what their problem is. Like, great. Cool. Here's what I do. And here's what I do. Does that align with what you're doing? And if they're like, not really. I'm like, great. Have you done this before? Have you tried this solution? Yes. Did it work? No. Okay. And if anything in that long, like what I do and how I would solve things,

[00:43:15] if they've already done it or like, like, it's like, cool, man. Like that didn't work. Then I might not be the person for you. And like, that's, I'd much rather that be the situation. And it goes the exact same way in a business. You walk in and say, Hey, I'm a sales person. I work in HR. And it's like, well, what we need right now in the HR communities, we need someone who can build our culture together. And you're like, oh, well, have you tried this and this? No, I haven't. And you're like, I might be the person for you. Let me come and implement my style of HR. Let me do like, that's why you'd hire me.

[00:43:44] But if you go in and you're like, just tell me what to do. It's like, eh, that might not work out so well. So for me, I'm like, this is what I do. Here's how I do it. Here's how I would do it for you. Here's your problem. And if they can't, if they're like, here's my problem. Like, Ooh, I don't do that. Then I'm like, I'm not like, Ooh, but I really need the job. I'm like, I would, there's, I'm now opening up the opportunity for more space for someone else to hire me for what I absolutely do. And there's also a tendency from a sales perspective to be like, here's what you should do. So yes, they have no voice, right?

[00:44:14] Here's what you should do. I already know everything I need to know about you. Here's what you should do. I'm just going to run everybody over and put my process in. Whether it works or not, it doesn't matter. It's my process. It must be better. So, so I think that that is a big tendency. So yeah, you know, asking what the problem is and what's, what success looks like is a better way to go. Having somebody to talk to like Josh to say, Hey, here's what we're trying to do. Can you help us? Or probably do you know somebody who could help us? Would be a great bridge.

[00:44:43] So Josh, this was awesome. I'm like ready to do four more podcasts with you at this point. Maybe, maybe with, maybe with the audio working on all of them. So, so anyway, we got through it. Like we got through it. And like, that's, I think I love the tenacity. I can see you're a kind of guy who's like, eh, crap happens. You're like, yes, exactly. Just keep going. So, so that was fun. Josh, again, we will, we will tag you in obviously the podcast. We'll make sure that your content information is there. Really appreciate you being on the show with us today.

[00:45:11] And, and this was incredibly valuable, not only for the folks that are looking for positions, but the folks who are like, Hey, I'm in a sales role. I'm brand new. This isn't going well. I don't know how to fix this. Please reach out to Josh. Have a conversation. If you're leading that sales team and you're seeing that as you're hiring trend, also reach out to Josh. And so get him in and get him to help you. This has been Career with Cameron. If you enjoyed the show today, please go ahead and give us five stars.

[00:45:40] If you are somebody who is in job search mode, you know, somebody in job search mode, or you're looking for some help, like I said, from Josh, in terms of figuring out what's, what's going on with your company, starting a company, the sales component, go ahead and hit subscribe, send it to all your friends that are in the same space because you're hanging out with them, having coffee. We're sure. And we'll see you next time. Thank you so much. Thank you.