[00:00:00] Hi everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live.
[00:00:05] Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us today.
[00:00:08] Before we begin I just want to make sure that I'm sharing a new offering that we've got here at Career Club,
[00:00:14] which is a free group coaching call every Thursday.
[00:00:17] We call it Career Club Corner and it's at 1 o'clock Eastern.
[00:00:21] All you need to do to register is go to career.club
[00:00:24] and the main banner there will be an invitation to register for that.
[00:00:28] So if you're in job search or know somebody who is in job search
[00:00:33] and these days who doesn't know somebody who's looking, we'd really encourage you.
[00:00:37] This is just part of our give back to the job seeking community
[00:00:40] to provide what we hope are some quality resources to people looking for a new role.
[00:00:44] And again it's free, it'll always be free and we hope that you take advantage.
[00:00:48] Career.club just click on the main banner and register for free.
[00:00:52] So with that I'm really excited about today's guest.
[00:00:56] I've gotten to know Cheryl over the past few months and before I get ahead of myself
[00:01:01] let me just read a little bit about her background and then we'll get her on stage here with me.
[00:01:06] So Cheryl Whiting Kish is a seasoned executive with over two decades of experience
[00:01:09] dedicated to guiding organizations in their most vital investment, their legacy.
[00:01:14] As a senior vice president of organizational development
[00:01:17] and chief people officer for HOA brands better known to you and me as Hooters Restaurants
[00:01:22] from 2019 to 2024 Cheryl drove transformation initiatives that enhanced organizational effectiveness
[00:01:29] and employee engagement.
[00:01:31] Cheryl's also certified in neuroscience brain based coaching by the Oxford Brain Institute
[00:01:36] and licensed in ROI coaching and she brings a unique blend of expertise in leadership,
[00:01:41] change management and people development topics that we will definitely be exploring.
[00:01:45] Cheryl's holistic approach has made significant impacts across diverse industries
[00:01:50] earning her recognition as a Georgia 100 Titans of Industry for both 2023 and 2024.
[00:01:57] With that Cheryl welcome.
[00:01:59] Hi Bob, thank you for having me.
[00:02:01] No, that's great.
[00:02:03] And so like I said, I think it was Andrea Herron at WebMD that got us introduced back last year
[00:02:09] and I have really enjoyed getting to know you over the past, you're probably here now.
[00:02:16] So what I like to do as is our habit is just to get to know you a little bit as a human being first
[00:02:22] of others can start to get to know the show I've gotten to know.
[00:02:25] So just a handful of easy icebreaker questions if that's okay.
[00:02:29] Absolutely cool.
[00:02:31] So we'll start with the easiest one where were you born and raised?
[00:02:33] I was born in Fort Belvoir, Virginia.
[00:02:37] My father was in the Air Force at the time but I was actually raised in Melbourne, Florida
[00:02:43] and that's on the East Coast, Space Coast of Florida and I have family members.
[00:02:49] My mom is still there.
[00:02:50] My sister, my brother.
[00:02:52] Oh awesome.
[00:02:52] Well speaking of family tell us about a little bit who's under your roof these days.
[00:02:56] Yes, my husband George and I live in Atlanta.
[00:03:00] George and I have been married.
[00:03:01] We're going on six years now.
[00:03:03] Nice.
[00:03:03] And so it's the two of us and then on both sides of our family we have plenty of nieces
[00:03:09] and nephews and I even have great nephews now which I'm super excited about.
[00:03:16] That's cool.
[00:03:17] And where did you go to school?
[00:03:19] Sure.
[00:03:20] So I was going to school in, can we pause here Bob?
[00:03:28] No.
[00:03:28] You have to edit this.
[00:03:29] No.
[00:03:30] Sorry.
[00:03:31] So to catch your breath, are you ready and then I'll ask you again?
[00:03:36] Yes.
[00:03:37] Okay cool.
[00:03:38] And so where did you go to school?
[00:03:40] Yes.
[00:03:40] So I went to school near the University of Florida.
[00:03:43] I was going to junior college there actually for journalism.
[00:03:46] So I got my AA there but then actually took a totally different path and I'm sure we'll
[00:03:52] talk about it and ended up in hospitality.
[00:03:55] Awesome.
[00:03:56] Okay cool.
[00:03:56] So let's just jump off right there.
[00:03:59] Do you mind just painting a little bit of a picture of your career arc?
[00:04:03] Absolutely.
[00:04:04] So at a very young age like many of us that worked in hospitality or do work in hospitality.
[00:04:09] So I started at a very young age as a teenager in hospitality but quickly by the time I
[00:04:14] was in my very early 20s I was in a leadership role, worked with Benegans and Marriott
[00:04:18] and eventually Hooters and others and then by my early 30s I was actually developing
[00:04:26] leaders of people myself and then by the time I was in my early 40s was vice president of
[00:04:33] human resources training and development at HOA which you mentioned.
[00:04:38] And but actually in 2002 started my own consulting business and focused on human resources,
[00:04:45] leadership development, training and eventually executive coaching.
[00:04:49] Awesome.
[00:04:50] Well I know we will talk about that here just a little bit and then last question
[00:04:54] and then we'll dive into our topics is what do we find you doing when you're not doing
[00:04:58] executive coaching and all those kinds of cool things?
[00:05:01] Sure.
[00:05:02] So I live in Atlanta as I mentioned and so we're very near the Belt Line.
[00:05:05] I love to get out, very walkable area of town so I'm always out there walking about
[00:05:11] and then I've taken on a gardening gazebo project for the summer.
[00:05:17] Awesome.
[00:05:17] Very cool.
[00:05:18] Well like I said, I've really enjoyed getting to know you and where I wanted to kind of
[00:05:25] just start because I think that there's probably, I'll raise my hand as somebody that would be in
[00:05:31] that category who initially maybe had not a complete picture of Hooters and what the
[00:05:39] culture is like and I know you said you'd started in hospitality.
[00:05:43] You might want to open that up a little bit but you know what is it about Hooters and the
[00:05:49] culture that attracts you to it and how's that changed over the years?
[00:05:56] Sure.
[00:05:57] So Hooters is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year and I started with the organization
[00:06:04] way back in the late 80s, it was a very young organization.
[00:06:08] I mean I had been a manager somewhere else and so when I think back over all of those years
[00:06:14] there's this very much a family sort of feel internally.
[00:06:19] When you join the organization Hooters, you're immediately taken in and there's this
[00:06:25] culture of belonging.
[00:06:27] Maybe that one didn't even really know that they needed.
[00:06:31] Also if I think back to, there's a lot of pride.
[00:06:34] No Hooters as most know is a female based right?
[00:06:39] We're a female based organization primarily women probably 70% of the folks that work in
[00:06:46] Hooters are women so there's quite a sisterhood that has developed an alumni that has developed
[00:06:52] over these past four decades and so I could go on and on and talk about that sisterhood
[00:06:58] and the alumni and the empowerment and all of that but it's very much a culture that allows
[00:07:04] one to be themselves and to grow within or even beyond the brand.
[00:07:11] Yeah so I mean I really want you to share maybe some stories because you know you really
[00:07:17] impressed me as I learned more about how women kind of in a lot of cases found their
[00:07:24] identity found their purpose and went on to have really impactful careers.
[00:07:31] I just want to make sure you share a story or two along those lines.
[00:07:34] Sure absolutely so when I rejoined in 2019, rejoined the organization as you mentioned earlier.
[00:07:42] It was really a mission of mine and a passion project of mine to shine a spotlight on and create
[00:07:48] or even shift a narrative that was maybe out there about the women half a million women
[00:07:53] that had donned the orange shorts over the four decades.
[00:07:56] And so we really start to look at you know who these women are they are not defined right
[00:08:02] as many might want to defined by the period of time they worked at Hooters and wore orange
[00:08:08] shorts by their choice right.
[00:08:10] So when I think about you know Alicia Andrews who was ever deputy secretary of cyber security
[00:08:17] in the state of Virginia just ran for Congress in the state of Virginia.
[00:08:21] She's a former Hooters girl right or I think about Rachelle Daglis who is now has her own
[00:08:28] organization and worldwide you know focusing on women of color and empowering women of
[00:08:33] color or I think about you know a colleague and friend of mine Jessica Pounds who is
[00:08:39] a senior vice president over at go to foods and she's overseeing seven different brands
[00:08:43] and I could go on and on.
[00:08:46] So the alumni the sisterhood the women that have come through the organization through
[00:08:54] their own you know really advocacy there and through their own agency have become
[00:08:59] whomever they want to be and Hooters has provided a platform for that so I could
[00:09:05] again I could go on and on.
[00:09:07] This is good.
[00:09:08] I mean what is it about the platform?
[00:09:11] What is it that Hooters has done that you know is really you know empowering these
[00:09:18] women to kind of go on to these really cool things.
[00:09:22] Well there's a couple of things and a lot of organizations do this right so providing
[00:09:27] tuition reimbursement is very attractive for folks coming into the organization.
[00:09:33] Also the fact that you can really bring your own unique personality and there's
[00:09:40] also almost this you know I've talked to a lot of Hooters girls you know present
[00:09:47] and former alumni and when I asked them what brought you to the organization I
[00:09:52] get so many that say I was growing up and I would come there with my family
[00:09:59] and I was just in all of the Hooters girls and I've always wanted to be a
[00:10:03] Hooters girl it's almost like wanting to be I'll just liken it to a Dallas Cowboy
[00:10:07] cheerleader but of the restaurant industry and so there's this mistake
[00:10:12] because while she's you know she's serving and all that she's more than
[00:10:17] a waitress she's a Hooters girl and so there's this I wonder if I can be
[00:10:22] a Hooters girl too.
[00:10:23] And as I also interview these women I said well what did you gain or learn
[00:10:28] or how did Hooters help you prepare for life beyond.
[00:10:33] I often get confidence I wasn't very confident until I joined and I learned
[00:10:39] how to speak and I learned how to use my voice we always get I learned
[00:10:44] how to deal with difficult situations I learned how to communicate I learned
[00:10:48] how to network I met people that I never would have met before they were
[00:10:52] my customers and they introduced me to the world of cybersecurity or law
[00:10:58] or whatever it might be so those are the type of responses that I get and
[00:11:03] I one of the things even though I'm not currently inside the organization
[00:11:07] any longer is to continue to to interview and to tell that story
[00:11:12] because there's so much to it.
[00:11:14] See and this is one piece that I really wanted to to unpack for
[00:11:21] people who are watching or listening to this is and I love what you said
[00:11:26] like this confidence and it's actually aspirational but like you said
[00:11:31] they found their voice I'm just going to repeat what you said because
[00:11:34] I think that a lot of people might labor under the misimpression of
[00:11:39] objectification or whatever and say no no no this is more they're
[00:11:43] actually getting into self-actualization and really kind of and I
[00:11:47] like what you said finding their voice but but this notion of confidence
[00:11:52] I do want to double click on that for a minute that is not to be underestimated
[00:11:57] so many people lack confidence and in a healthy understanding of who they are
[00:12:04] right and in kind of manifest in at least a couple of ways one is
[00:12:11] they just don't aspire as highly as they could you know and they have
[00:12:16] these self-imposed limits because there's a lack of self-belief the
[00:12:21] negative or more negative version of that is imposter syndrome right so
[00:12:27] I'm overcompensating for this lack of you know worth that I might feel
[00:12:33] and it creates this other form of anxiety and yet in this environment
[00:12:39] like you said it's more than just being a waitress I waited tables for four
[00:12:43] years so like I may empathy levels very high but it's still different
[00:12:49] with this particular brand yeah one thing I'd like to touch on around the
[00:12:54] brand and I think what helps build the confidence and just opens up
[00:13:00] possibilities for young women coming to work with the organization is
[00:13:03] when I say more than a waitress more than a waitress who there's
[00:13:07] a lot of people who are very involved and always has been for 40 years
[00:13:09] in the communities in which it serves and operates so whether it's
[00:13:14] promotions inside the four walls but so often it's promotions and serving
[00:13:18] the community outside the four walls so these these women are going
[00:13:24] out into the community and they're serving whether it's at hospitals
[00:13:28] children hospitals there's a story about a Hooters girl a couple of
[00:13:33] years ago she actually became Miss International Hooters well she was
[00:13:37] I believe out of Miami and she was as a young child ill and had to
[00:13:42] spend a lot of time in the children's hospital and she spoke about how
[00:13:46] the Hooters girls when she was a young girl would come and visit the
[00:13:49] hospital and bring you know bring gifts and spend time with the
[00:13:53] children and that always stuck with her and she's like that's
[00:13:57] what I want to do and so now as a Hooters girl and former Miss
[00:14:01] International right she has gone back to do that at the very same
[00:14:05] hospital so whether it's the girl you know the girl scout's
[00:14:10] coming so cookies at you know at Hooters or we're doing all sorts of
[00:14:13] things I mean we we raise Hooters has raised millions and
[00:14:18] millions and millions of dollars for breast cancer awareness
[00:14:22] I mean last year a check was presented I got to present the
[00:14:26] check of Madison Square Gardens for $785,000 I mean that's amazing
[00:14:31] and that's every year that this is happening so the whole month
[00:14:36] of October you know everyone in all of the restaurants are raising
[00:14:40] money so that's part of where I think some of the I meaning
[00:14:45] you know I a young Hooters girl and being exposed I'm coming to
[00:14:49] work yes to serve food and drink but I'm doing it in a way with
[00:14:53] my personality I'm really engaging with because that's what we're
[00:14:57] looking for is this engagement with the guest and shining and
[00:15:02] providing these experiences both inside the four walls and in
[00:15:06] the community. What's the idea of employee engagement because
[00:15:11] I know that's something that a lot of companies struggle with
[00:15:14] right and something that I know that you think about
[00:15:20] what where do companies struggle why is it the company
[00:15:24] struggle to drive employee engagement what can they and
[00:15:28] should they be doing about it. I think the companies that
[00:15:31] struggle they're focusing on the wrong thing first they're
[00:15:35] focusing on the external customer and only the external
[00:15:39] customer you have to do both right and I believe you focus
[00:15:44] on your internal client or customer first which is your
[00:15:48] employee or team member and you have to provide experiences
[00:15:53] Bob that are going to drive the beliefs of those people that
[00:15:56] are working in your organization that are going to drive the
[00:15:59] beliefs that are then going to drive the behaviors of the
[00:16:02] action that are going to drive your business results if
[00:16:05] you take an organization like Hooters it's always been
[00:16:08] about fun it's always been you know it's a great place
[00:16:10] to work or flexible with your schedule come on in it's a
[00:16:13] party all the time I mean you get to be a part of that so
[00:16:17] creating those experiences for the men and women right we
[00:16:21] call it heart of house Hooters and Hooters girls first
[00:16:24] they're of course going to show up in a way that you want them
[00:16:28] to show up and hope that they show up for the guests that
[00:16:31] choose to come in so I don't care what type of organization
[00:16:35] you're in you have to focus on driving the beliefs
[00:16:39] and therefore the behaviors of the people that are working
[00:16:43] for you. Okay and what do you mean by the beliefs
[00:16:45] what does that mean. Yeah so
[00:16:50] what the beliefs that
[00:16:52] let's say customer service is a belief that how important customer
[00:16:57] services is a belief that you want your team members to have
[00:17:00] well then the experiences you provide for those team members
[00:17:04] should be very service oriented so you know if you want
[00:17:09] your servers to be guest obsessed then what are and you
[00:17:14] want them to believe that they should be guest obsessed then
[00:17:18] as leaders in the organization are you guest obsessed with
[00:17:22] the people that work for you. Yes what are you doing for them
[00:17:26] right how are you taking care of them how are you providing
[00:17:29] that because if you're not doing that they're not going to
[00:17:33] be guest obsessed for the external customer that's one example
[00:17:36] yeah so I put the intergrade example you know this
[00:17:41] alignment of you know individuals belief systems to the
[00:17:47] company's belief systems are huge and when you when you can
[00:17:52] achieve that and you're recruiting the right kinds of people
[00:17:55] and then modeling behavior that you want to see then
[00:17:59] you're right that that's actually culture is actually how
[00:18:01] stuff gets done it's not what we say it's not what's on the
[00:18:05] the you know conference room walls or whatever it's like
[00:18:08] how work really gets done and it's one thing to you know
[00:18:12] kind of declare it it's another thing to demonstrate you know
[00:18:16] what you want we were talking earlier about some of the other
[00:18:20] phenomenal guests like you that we've had on the podcast and
[00:18:23] somebody that I got to interview last year was at Bastion
[00:18:26] in Atlanta of Delta right CEO of Delta and exactly
[00:18:32] what you're describing if you take care of your frontline
[00:18:34] people they will take care of their customers they will take
[00:18:38] care of your shareholders that's the virtuous circle as he would
[00:18:42] describe it and I think that it's very in line with what
[00:18:46] you're describing and then this is I mean it sounds like
[00:18:51] consultants speak sometimes but it's not what you said
[00:18:55] though is so spot on beliefs drive behaviors I to my core
[00:19:02] believe that right and that's what at at Define Consulting
[00:19:06] we're focused on is helping organizations I'm working with
[00:19:09] a group out of Nashville now not to tell you that
[00:19:15] entrepreneurial organization founder is so strongly
[00:19:20] believes in the core beliefs and the values of the
[00:19:22] organization CEO I work with and the leaders that
[00:19:27] they're developing that is first and foremost it is
[00:19:30] a people first over profit driven organization yet of
[00:19:36] course it's very profitable and it's growing and growing
[00:19:40] and growing but it's because of the deep rooted believe
[00:19:45] that your core values you have to live and walk those
[00:19:48] every day no matter who you are and people say that
[00:19:51] all the time but not many organizations are actually
[00:19:54] able to do it.
[00:19:56] So, so you know as a CHRO yet and in building leadership
[00:20:04] qualities into the culture you know where does your
[00:20:08] mind go on that and how do companies effectively build
[00:20:11] you know high quality leaders particularly at the
[00:20:15] frontline management level.
[00:20:17] Sure so I believe that it starts with really
[00:20:21] understanding and defining the company really understanding
[00:20:25] it's not only its vision it's future state vision for
[00:20:29] business results but really understanding who they
[00:20:33] want to be and what they want to be known for as an
[00:20:35] organization right what is the legacy that the
[00:20:39] organization right or the footprint that the
[00:20:42] organization wants to to be known for and then
[00:20:45] from there you say well what type of leaders are
[00:20:49] going to be able to drive that vision drive those
[00:20:53] values right and then there's also this piece around
[00:20:58] as a leader having vision for yourself as a leader so
[00:21:01] helping leaders understand that yes there's an
[00:21:05] organizational brand but you have your own leadership
[00:21:07] and personal brand and you mentioned the word
[00:21:09] alignment one of my favorites you know where is
[00:21:12] there and how do you create alignment to the
[00:21:16] organization and who you are as a leader and
[00:21:18] then just ensuring that that is constantly part of
[00:21:21] whatever developmental programs you're offering
[00:21:26] and that there's sustainability around that
[00:21:29] and making sure that there's that alignment.
[00:21:32] Yeah you know what's weird is there's a study out
[00:21:34] we're recording this in June it came out a couple
[00:21:37] weeks ago and it was talking about like fully
[00:21:41] two-thirds of frontline managers say they've had
[00:21:45] no training in management or leadership
[00:21:48] it's like what like how can that possibly be
[00:21:52] and how can you execute a strategy if your
[00:21:55] frontline managers haven't been given the skills
[00:21:58] the tools the fundamentals to do that.
[00:22:02] It is amazing Bob how many organizations I might have
[00:22:05] mentioned to this to you I'll work with an
[00:22:08] organization or be introduced to one and it's
[00:22:10] it's like a 50 year old organization or 30 year
[00:22:13] old and then and you go oh well surely they
[00:22:15] must have this in place surely they must be
[00:22:17] doing this and then you get in there and you
[00:22:18] to your point oh my goodness so I think
[00:22:22] sometimes often organizations can be
[00:22:25] successful in spite of themselves but the
[00:22:29] organization I was speaking of earlier that
[00:22:31] I'm working with and in the philosophy that's
[00:22:34] so rooted around leadership and values if
[00:22:37] you're going to be a leader of people there
[00:22:39] then you go through the leadership program
[00:22:41] you go through the different levels of the
[00:22:43] leadership program that they have to offer.
[00:22:47] Well let's kind of move into what you're doing
[00:22:49] these days and kind of your consulting
[00:22:52] business and how do you take the practices
[00:22:55] of a big company like HOA and the other
[00:23:01] things that you've learned in your corporate
[00:23:03] career how do you overlay those into
[00:23:07] you know a business that's maybe not quite
[00:23:09] as big or has all the resources?
[00:23:12] Sure so it starts with really understanding
[00:23:16] I've mentioned this but it starts with
[00:23:18] really sitting with the decision makers
[00:23:21] the leaders right of the organization
[00:23:23] and understanding what is it that they're
[00:23:27] trying to accomplish and why so again
[00:23:31] what is the vision what are you trying
[00:23:33] to accomplish where why do you believe
[00:23:36] there's a gap I always ask why this
[00:23:38] why now right why this one now what's
[00:23:41] the what's the perceived gap and let's
[00:23:44] just talk about baby steps in order to
[00:23:47] move the needle so it's assessing current
[00:23:50] state no matter how big or small the
[00:23:53] organization is right you've got a future
[00:23:55] vision you've got a current reality
[00:23:58] let's just look at regardless of
[00:24:01] resources what's going to move the
[00:24:04] needle a little bit at a time so
[00:24:06] that's sort of the framework and you
[00:24:09] just look at what is it that the
[00:24:10] organization is trying to tackle and
[00:24:13] then you know like in classic
[00:24:16] consulting you might have people
[00:24:18] processes technologies you know do you
[00:24:21] find that there's some key levers
[00:24:23] particularly in your practice that you
[00:24:24] guys are able to help people bridge
[00:24:26] certain gaps really effectively well it's
[00:24:30] really on the on the people side so
[00:24:32] for my business it's really around
[00:24:34] opening up possibilities opening up
[00:24:37] mindset really looking at one size does
[00:24:40] not fit all when it comes to people so
[00:24:43] we're really looking at the people side
[00:24:45] the process side certainly it's if the
[00:24:48] process isn't in place and that's
[00:24:50] causing this disconnect with people
[00:24:54] productivity then of course we're
[00:24:57] going to look at that as well because
[00:24:59] you know people don't have the tools
[00:25:00] and resources and systems and all that
[00:25:03] in order to self actualize
[00:25:05] actualize eyes or fully be productive
[00:25:09] then that has to be addressed for sure
[00:25:11] on the technology side not as much
[00:25:14] although certainly AI and all of that
[00:25:17] we we want to stay current in that
[00:25:21] because there's no doubt that that's
[00:25:23] impacting the workplace and impacting
[00:25:25] people so when you're doing an
[00:25:28] assessment of the people at a
[00:25:31] company you know if this is a false
[00:25:34] framework like don't be bound by it
[00:25:37] but not having the right kinds of people
[00:25:40] not having the people in the right
[00:25:42] positions not having the tools
[00:25:46] not knowing what's expected of them
[00:25:48] where do you find kind of the most
[00:25:50] common people gaps
[00:25:52] well I'm just going to this communication
[00:25:54] for what I find over and over and
[00:25:57] over again is that a lot of the
[00:26:02] the confusion or the lack of
[00:26:04] productivity or maybe the performance
[00:26:06] drivers when I interview folks
[00:26:10] deeper down in the organization
[00:26:12] always comes up that there's not a
[00:26:14] clear line of the clarity often is
[00:26:17] not there around what am I supposed
[00:26:19] to be doing why am I doing this
[00:26:22] how do I fit into the bigger picture
[00:26:25] that's that's often a mess with
[00:26:27] organizations and then I also think
[00:26:30] it's organizations not taking enough
[00:26:33] time to understand the individual
[00:26:35] and then a third thing I'll say is
[00:26:39] ensuring a lot of times in
[00:26:41] organizations the the leaders want
[00:26:44] to try to make a certain person
[00:26:46] that's already there fit in a seat
[00:26:50] or role and so I try to help
[00:26:53] organizations look at you know let's
[00:26:55] look at success profiles first
[00:26:57] let's develop the org design what
[00:27:00] what do you need and what do you
[00:27:02] need in those roles right and what
[00:27:04] would somebody in that role need to
[00:27:06] possess competency wise skill wise
[00:27:09] right in order to be successful then
[00:27:11] let's take a look at whether or not
[00:27:13] you know Bob fits that role
[00:27:16] and a lot of organizations don't
[00:27:19] you know want to take the time
[00:27:21] to necessarily build out that org
[00:27:24] design future state and the success
[00:27:27] profiles that are necessary for today
[00:27:29] and tomorrow to drive you know the
[00:27:33] results that the organization I want
[00:27:35] to come to success profiles in a
[00:27:37] second but but harkening back to
[00:27:39] your kind of original thing on its
[00:27:42] communication and people don't know
[00:27:44] what's expected of them yeah do
[00:27:46] senior leaders believe well we're
[00:27:48] telling them are they not getting
[00:27:49] it yeah okay so why is that
[00:27:53] happening where where's it not
[00:27:55] working I think that senior
[00:27:57] leaders are moving so fast what I
[00:27:59] hear often from my clients is that
[00:28:03] the senior leadership is just go
[00:28:04] just go just go and you know I get
[00:28:07] it at the same time what happens
[00:28:11] is that you can start to fragment
[00:28:13] so the folks that are expected to
[00:28:14] execute the vision if they're not
[00:28:18] if it's not communicated effectively
[00:28:20] if the if the work's not
[00:28:22] prioritized then you're going to
[00:28:24] end up with silos within the
[00:28:26] organization everybody's trying to
[00:28:28] do their best there's competing
[00:28:29] priorities but when you actually
[00:28:31] interview those leaders who are
[00:28:34] expected to execute against senior
[00:28:36] leadership's vision we've got to
[00:28:39] look at ways to close that gap
[00:28:40] and then I mentioned prioritization
[00:28:43] it's limiting the number of
[00:28:45] priorities in order to truly drive
[00:28:48] the results and the last thing I'll
[00:28:50] say about communication and I'm a big
[00:28:51] fan of John Cotter's work when it
[00:28:54] comes to change and leading change
[00:28:56] and you know Cotter will say you have
[00:28:58] to have a compelling vision of course
[00:29:00] there has to be a sense of urgency
[00:29:02] but over communicate you think
[00:29:05] you've communicated but you have to
[00:29:07] communicate ten times more or even
[00:29:10] more than that then you think you
[00:29:12] have to communicate and you have to
[00:29:13] do it in many many many different
[00:29:15] ways so to answer your question
[00:29:17] yes senior leaders believe
[00:29:19] they've said it they should
[00:29:21] get it and it's not the
[00:29:24] case well I do want to pick up
[00:29:27] on the point you're making around
[00:29:28] priorities because that strikes
[00:29:32] close to home because I live in
[00:29:34] ideal land and it's like hey
[00:29:37] well here's another good idea and
[00:29:38] here's another good idea and I'm
[00:29:40] very fortunate to have a colleague
[00:29:41] that's like that's okay Bob we can
[00:29:43] go do that what do you want me to stop
[00:29:44] doing so we can go do that
[00:29:47] that's right my understanding Bob is
[00:29:50] the priorities are one two three four
[00:29:52] five is that how you see it and like
[00:29:55] we have a weekly conversation
[00:29:57] just on priorities it's okay if
[00:29:59] something shifts it's just what are
[00:30:02] we going to stop doing to go do that
[00:30:04] in a real alignment that okay we're
[00:30:07] gonna do that in July you're saying
[00:30:09] it's okay that that doesn't happen
[00:30:10] until September right yeah that's it
[00:30:13] you know but but it's setting
[00:30:16] expectations it's okay to be fluid
[00:30:18] with some of this stuff the other
[00:30:21] thing that I'm taking from what you're
[00:30:22] saying Cheryl I think it's really strong
[00:30:24] is highly related which is focus like
[00:30:27] you can't do everything so pick the
[00:30:30] things that you are going to do and
[00:30:31] do with excellence know why you're
[00:30:33] doing those and why you're choosing
[00:30:36] them versus something else which is
[00:30:39] a prioritization piece and then you know
[00:30:42] I love what you're saying too like as a
[00:30:45] leader I think about the stuff all the
[00:30:47] time right that's why it's so in my head
[00:30:51] but you know thankfully other people
[00:30:54] aren't thinking about this as much as I
[00:30:57] do and so they do need the reinforcement
[00:30:59] and LFA and they need to hear in a
[00:31:02] bunch of different ways right so
[00:31:05] really really good advice and things
[00:31:07] that what I also like about this is
[00:31:10] that it's it's in your control like
[00:31:13] everything you just said doesn't require
[00:31:14] money it requires intentionality I love
[00:31:19] that well too yeah go ahead no I love
[00:31:22] that word too you've mentioned alignment
[00:31:25] several times one of my favorite words
[00:31:27] in the dictionary and intentionality
[00:31:30] another one of my favorite words and
[00:31:33] it's not you have to be intentional
[00:31:35] to be intentional right that's met
[00:31:39] intentional yes but why is intentional
[00:31:42] such a big word for you
[00:31:47] because it takes discipline and if you're
[00:31:50] intentional you're gonna you know the
[00:31:52] gap is going to be less the misalignment
[00:31:55] is going to be nest less I often work
[00:31:58] with leaders in and I call it an
[00:32:00] intentional communication right and so how
[00:32:03] can you have intentionality intentional
[00:32:05] collaboration so if you if you
[00:32:09] understand you know the emotional
[00:32:11] intelligence behind it and what it
[00:32:12] takes to be very intentional in your
[00:32:14] communication very intentional when
[00:32:17] you're building high performing teams
[00:32:19] it takes focus to do that but you are
[00:32:23] going to it might seem like oh gosh
[00:32:27] but that's gonna take time to do that
[00:32:28] but you're saving time by being
[00:32:32] intentional on the front end with
[00:32:35] project planning with prioritization I
[00:32:39] love that you talked about that you have
[00:32:40] a meeting every week with your partner
[00:32:42] right with your colleague so having a
[00:32:45] cadence even though people might go
[00:32:47] your leadership team might say but we
[00:32:50] just talked about that why do we have
[00:32:52] to have a monthly cadence well because
[00:32:54] you do because you have changed and
[00:32:58] so it's worth the time to get together
[00:33:00] and say where we at with this priority
[00:33:02] are we hitting the mark is it working
[00:33:04] is it not do we need to adjust and no
[00:33:08] more on these annual we do this annual
[00:33:10] strategy right yes you do but it's
[00:33:13] really got to be quarterly well you
[00:33:16] mentioned AI earlier and this wouldn't
[00:33:18] be a proper podcast if we didn't see AI
[00:33:20] for a minute but the world's just
[00:33:24] changing so quickly right and business
[00:33:27] models are being disrupted new
[00:33:29] technologies being introduced you know
[00:33:32] external factors that are acting and
[00:33:34] and you're right like you can't just
[00:33:37] set it and forget it because the
[00:33:40] world didn't just go on pause while
[00:33:42] you're doing all this stuff and if
[00:33:44] you're not reviewing it you know
[00:33:46] definitely more than annually
[00:33:47] quarterly for sure yeah it seems
[00:33:51] like a recipe for for kind of going
[00:33:54] off course or people not remembering
[00:33:58] or like whatever it could be we also
[00:34:03] talk you're talking about people and I
[00:34:04] want to focus on that when when you're
[00:34:07] building teams or you're helping your
[00:34:10] clients build teams what are some of
[00:34:13] the qualities that you really gravitate
[00:34:17] to or looking for well what are the
[00:34:22] what's the client looking for right and
[00:34:25] so again I'm going to go back to the
[00:34:27] behaviors that will show up that will
[00:34:29] you know they're living the core values
[00:34:32] and all of that and so once you
[00:34:36] understand that it's then I always
[00:34:39] start with know thyself first so if
[00:34:43] we're working with a team it's making
[00:34:46] sure that individuals within that
[00:34:48] intact team let's say as an example
[00:34:50] understand that in order to be a
[00:34:52] leader your leader of self first so
[00:34:55] let's start there then let's look at
[00:34:58] okay now how do you work with others
[00:35:00] how do I understand others so I have
[00:35:02] this awareness the emotional intelligence
[00:35:04] piece and all of that who I am and how
[00:35:06] I show up and the strengths and the
[00:35:08] gifts that I bring but then also now
[00:35:11] what does Bob bring and what does you
[00:35:14] know Susan bring and that sort of
[00:35:15] thing and then what's it going to
[00:35:17] take to leverage all of that so that
[00:35:19] we're taking our unique skills and
[00:35:21] talents but we're all focused on
[00:35:23] driving you know team as an effective
[00:35:26] high-performing team we're all focused
[00:35:29] on driving those business results and
[00:35:31] how are we doing that and then I'm
[00:35:33] working with with a group now one of
[00:35:35] just this week and we met and we did
[00:35:37] a little exercise on you know how do
[00:35:39] you believe you're showing up as this
[00:35:41] leadership team today but future
[00:35:44] state two years from now you know
[00:35:46] if all of these business results and
[00:35:49] you know and you were asked how did
[00:35:51] you make that happen what what would
[00:35:54] your commitments to each other be you
[00:35:56] know how you're engaging with each
[00:35:57] other what you're committing to each
[00:35:59] other how did you do that until it
[00:36:01] was a really eye-opening exercise
[00:36:02] because the team realized I need to
[00:36:05] be this I need to do this for you
[00:36:07] for you for you and they got all
[00:36:09] excited about it so you know depending
[00:36:12] on at the end of the day no matter
[00:36:14] what the organization or what the
[00:36:15] team there's a goal they're trying
[00:36:17] to hit together as the team so
[00:36:19] understanding how they do that
[00:36:22] self and how they do that with others
[00:36:24] is going to be the most important
[00:36:26] thing are there assessments or other
[00:36:28] tools that you like or that you
[00:36:32] would recommend to help people
[00:36:34] understand themselves and then kind
[00:36:37] of collectively understand themselves
[00:36:38] as a team well in my coaching
[00:36:42] so in my code if I may in my
[00:36:44] coaching I you know I use a we go
[00:36:49] through a process life story process
[00:36:51] mental models you know that sort of
[00:36:54] thing understanding the non-conscious
[00:36:57] beliefs that might be there that are
[00:37:00] driving how I show up today right my
[00:37:02] automatic so that that's with
[00:37:05] individuals and then also 360
[00:37:08] assessments I personally like to do
[00:37:13] 360 assessments or have them done have
[00:37:15] my coaches that work with me they do
[00:37:17] them in person it's not an automated
[00:37:20] I'm just going to send out this right
[00:37:22] it's I'm going to interview these
[00:37:25] folks in order to get you really good
[00:37:28] feedback on how you're showing up as
[00:37:30] an individual from their perspective
[00:37:32] the mental models help to say oh
[00:37:35] gosh that's probably why I'm
[00:37:38] showing up like that and then the
[00:37:40] other one that I really love is it's
[00:37:41] called a personal threat profile and
[00:37:43] my dear colleague Phil Dixon you
[00:37:45] mentioned the Oxford Brain Institute
[00:37:46] called the PTP and so it's identifying
[00:37:50] triggers that are the triggers that
[00:37:54] cause us to go into this state of fear
[00:37:56] and threat so if my for example I'm
[00:38:00] very high in autonomy like I've
[00:38:02] learned that about myself so when my
[00:38:04] autonomy you know my ability to be
[00:38:06] you know to have that autonomy is
[00:38:08] threatened I'm going to you know
[00:38:10] show up so becoming aware of what
[00:38:13] ones triggers are that put our brain
[00:38:16] into fear and threat instead of safety
[00:38:17] and comfort mm-hmm also something
[00:38:20] that I love and you can you can do that
[00:38:22] with teams you can also do that with
[00:38:24] teams as well and then even
[00:38:26] strength finders everybody's familiar
[00:38:28] I you know most are with strength
[00:38:30] finders I love that and teams love
[00:38:33] that because it's all positive
[00:38:34] psychology well so I'm glad you ended
[00:38:37] on that one because I do we use
[00:38:40] strengths finder at career club with
[00:38:43] our clients because we find that
[00:38:46] you talked about gifts and strengths
[00:38:48] earlier did the people actually don't
[00:38:50] know them sometimes well I don't know
[00:38:52] Bob I just do what I do well okay and
[00:38:57] what I love about that particular
[00:38:59] tool it will give you your top five
[00:39:02] strengths it'll put it in context
[00:39:04] of you know how you as you say how
[00:39:07] you show up right and when you're kind
[00:39:09] of at your best you're probably doing
[00:39:12] these things in a more complete
[00:39:15] reported also will show you what are
[00:39:18] they called balconies and basements
[00:39:20] like these have you know there's a flip
[00:39:23] side to this coin right you know Bob
[00:39:24] you're very strategic the problem
[00:39:26] with that sometimes can be you don't
[00:39:28] pay enough attention to details that's
[00:39:30] right you find that tedious true so I
[00:39:34] need to find somebody like my wife
[00:39:36] who's an accountant who thrives on
[00:39:38] details or my colleague at work who's
[00:39:41] very good with details because I'm
[00:39:43] unlikely to change in that but what I
[00:39:45] really like about it and this gets
[00:39:48] back to confidence these are durable
[00:39:52] qualities about ourselves that don't
[00:39:54] have anything to do with the success
[00:39:56] of the company that I was at or lack
[00:39:58] of success at the company that I
[00:40:00] was at and we sometimes will tie too
[00:40:02] much of our self-worth to our job
[00:40:05] and not enough to how we were created
[00:40:07] who we really are as people and when
[00:40:11] you understand these qualities it
[00:40:13] drives some self-belief right it but
[00:40:16] it also drives the ability to
[00:40:18] articulate that now and to know how
[00:40:21] to express that and between self
[00:40:24] awareness and then the ability to
[00:40:26] articulate that is really really
[00:40:28] important and the third thing is
[00:40:31] identifying organizations back to our
[00:40:33] first word that align with who I am
[00:40:36] right so if they really value and
[00:40:39] their values are x y and z and
[00:40:43] or this role even and that's kind of
[00:40:47] I know that's not who I am as much
[00:40:49] as I might want that job it's
[00:40:52] probably not going to end well
[00:40:54] because there's this misalignment but
[00:40:57] until you've gone through any of
[00:40:59] these tools it will help you and
[00:41:02] I love 360 to because you
[00:41:04] what we find I think sometimes
[00:41:06] people are afraid on 360s that
[00:41:08] they're going to hear stuff they don't
[00:41:09] want to hear what we find is yeah
[00:41:11] there's maybe a little dose of that
[00:41:13] but what they really thanks Cheryl
[00:41:15] don't you remember like when you were
[00:41:16] leaving this team oh my gosh
[00:41:18] you were so inspiring and the way
[00:41:20] that you got people you know like
[00:41:21] you saw that in me and I think
[00:41:24] that actually people find a lot
[00:41:26] of positivity reflected back on to
[00:41:28] them that maybe they were just
[00:41:31] you know focused on getting the next
[00:41:33] task done and never really understood
[00:41:35] how they were actually contributing
[00:41:37] to your organization the team whatever
[00:41:41] yeah I love that you know it's
[00:41:43] really shifting the narrative on
[00:41:45] 360s is what you've just done
[00:41:47] and that's exactly right there's
[00:41:50] just as much positive I always say
[00:41:51] look as you're listening to this
[00:41:53] feedback focus on the strengths
[00:41:56] focus on the positives because
[00:41:59] we're going to talk about those
[00:42:00] first and yeah maybe there's going to
[00:42:02] be a thing a little theme here a
[00:42:04] little lever that just has to be
[00:42:06] tweaked just a little bit but I
[00:42:08] promise you that's you know that's
[00:42:10] what's going to come out of this
[00:42:12] and just yesterday I was I was
[00:42:14] getting a 360 feedback a summary
[00:42:16] to someone and and they were
[00:42:18] just so humbled and really full
[00:42:21] of gratitude for the positive
[00:42:23] comments that were coming through
[00:42:25] so I'm glad that you shared that
[00:42:26] yeah it's just true because I mean
[00:42:29] look here's you're the neuroscience
[00:42:31] person on the skull not me but the
[00:42:34] real real is most people have a lot
[00:42:37] of self doubt their self criticism
[00:42:39] these narratives that we tell ourselves
[00:42:42] tend to not be really positive and
[00:42:45] so when we get this feedback from
[00:42:48] other people that's very affirming
[00:42:50] it's it's like breathing life it's
[00:42:53] like CPR it's like breathing life back
[00:42:55] into people that sometimes we focus
[00:42:58] on you know the gap and we don't
[00:43:01] focus on the progress and so we're
[00:43:04] always kind of seeing what's not done
[00:43:05] what we're not in hearing who we are
[00:43:09] and how we do contribute is just
[00:43:11] it's life giving to other people
[00:43:14] it's so true well our brains are
[00:43:15] wired to fight to be looking five
[00:43:18] times more for you know use that
[00:43:20] thread again for what's wrong
[00:43:22] what could hurt me then it is
[00:43:24] for what's good and what's right
[00:43:26] and what won't hurt me and so again
[00:43:29] it goes back to those belief systems
[00:43:31] that we're not even aware of until
[00:43:33] we become aware of them yeah well
[00:43:36] and that is important to understand I
[00:43:38] used to work with a guy that did
[00:43:40] facial coding and so I'm going to
[00:43:44] mess this up a little bit but like
[00:43:45] there's five core emotions happiness
[00:43:50] surprise sadness anger contempt
[00:43:53] there might be a couple others but
[00:43:56] the interesting thing is only one of
[00:43:57] those is positive happy one is neutral
[00:44:01] surprise oh crap I wrecked my car oh
[00:44:03] goody I won the lottery and then the
[00:44:06] negative ones so you're right I mean
[00:44:09] there's something to protect us that
[00:44:12] our emotions are generally you know
[00:44:15] kind of fear or protection or
[00:44:18] survival oriented yes so that's why
[00:44:21] we need you know three to five times
[00:44:24] as much positive input to counteract
[00:44:28] the natural wiring that we've got to
[00:44:30] look for threats or what's wrong yeah
[00:44:34] exactly right well psychological pain
[00:44:37] you know there's physical pain and
[00:44:38] psychological pain and you know physical
[00:44:41] pain can heal right oh I banged up my
[00:44:43] knee but okay it's going to heal but
[00:44:45] that that psychological pain or that you
[00:44:48] know that social pain it may never
[00:44:51] heal so fascinating probably for another
[00:44:53] podcast that is another podcast for
[00:44:56] sure so let's start putting a bow on
[00:44:58] this one what what is the best career
[00:45:04] advice you've ever been given to
[00:45:11] surround yourself with those that are
[00:45:16] subject matter area experts in areas
[00:45:19] you may not be so learn cross
[00:45:22] functionally to have a mentor seek out a
[00:45:26] mentor seek out a coach if you can
[00:45:30] right and do that as early as possible
[00:45:34] as you can in your career and I've had
[00:45:38] so many that was given to me and I would
[00:45:41] give that to others and I believe you
[00:45:45] oh you just did a wonderful podcast
[00:45:47] with someone that was talking about
[00:45:49] that but seeking out those who can help
[00:45:51] them map map their careers and where they
[00:45:53] want to go but that was given to me
[00:45:56] and I still have a coat you know I still
[00:45:58] seek out my coach or coaches and my
[00:46:01] mentors no it's great I actually just
[00:46:04] signed on with a coach myself because
[00:46:07] there's things that are not in my
[00:46:09] gifting that I need help with and I
[00:46:13] can pretend like it's not a problem I
[00:46:15] can deal with it right and so I
[00:46:19] read that I mean I think everybody
[00:46:20] benefits from you know having a mentor
[00:46:24] kind of a board of advisors you know
[00:46:27] people that can speak to you in different
[00:46:30] aspects you know so somebody who's
[00:46:32] the encourager may not be the person
[00:46:34] that can give you some more challenging
[00:46:36] feedback right and you don't always
[00:46:38] need candy sometimes you need your
[00:46:40] vegetables but yeah I think that's
[00:46:43] great and you just surrounding
[00:46:45] yourself with people who aren't like
[00:46:48] you and we probably go down diversity
[00:46:50] right and inclusion but getting
[00:46:53] multiple points of view only makes a
[00:46:56] stronger it makes the team stronger and
[00:46:59] it sounds like and I know it is the kind
[00:47:01] of work that you help your clients do
[00:47:04] thank you is there anything that you
[00:47:08] would want to leave people with and
[00:47:09] maybe it's well I do want to for sure
[00:47:12] say if people want to learn more
[00:47:14] about your consulting business what's
[00:47:17] the best way for them to go contact you
[00:47:20] and learn more about that sure so
[00:47:22] www.define
[00:47:26] define consulting.com
[00:47:28] and my number is right there too so
[00:47:30] contact us or call me for sure
[00:47:33] thank you Bob for that I you know one
[00:47:37] last thing I'd like to say for those
[00:47:39] who are leaders in organizations that
[00:47:41] might might be listening is I believe
[00:47:46] we owe it as leaders in organizations
[00:47:49] to provide a platform for the people
[00:47:53] that are working for you to become
[00:47:55] them their best selves they may leave
[00:47:58] your organization right they may not
[00:48:01] stay their whole career as a matter of fact
[00:48:04] they probably won't but they're going
[00:48:06] to become voices for your organization
[00:48:09] even after they leave so as a leader
[00:48:14] ask yourself what is my organization
[00:48:16] doing to help them grow personally
[00:48:20] and professionally whether they're going
[00:48:23] to stay or they're going to exit that's
[00:48:26] the legacy that you as a leader and as
[00:48:29] an organization can leave so that those
[00:48:32] folks look back and thank you for that
[00:48:35] gift that you've offered them well
[00:48:38] that's really really powerful and you know
[00:48:41] it runs counterintuitive to a more
[00:48:44] transactional relationship like you know
[00:48:47] we only have a relationship as long as
[00:48:49] you are getting a check from that
[00:48:52] company but the reality is that you're
[00:48:55] right I mean your brand is out there
[00:48:57] and what somebody's experience was is
[00:49:01] going to have a legacy effect and it
[00:49:04] probably is worth kind of going back
[00:49:05] to the value of alumni networks right
[00:49:08] yes advocates or brand detractors out
[00:49:12] there but if you can build a tribe of
[00:49:15] alumni who are proud to have worked at
[00:49:17] your organization and what they got out
[00:49:18] of it that pays massive dividends it
[00:49:23] does and I can see their faces now I
[00:49:25] can see you know back to you know our
[00:49:27] discussion on Hooters I see the faces
[00:49:29] of these women in my mind's eye now
[00:49:32] who are leading organizations you know
[00:49:36] their CHRO's their COO's their moms
[00:49:40] their nurses their cancer survivors I
[00:49:43] see their faces and I know how much
[00:49:48] that time meant to them in who they
[00:49:52] are today and so that's the legacy
[00:49:55] that all organizations can strive for
[00:49:57] sure that is the perfect note to in
[00:50:00] this one thank you so much I'm glad
[00:50:03] we finally got the schedule I knew
[00:50:05] it was going to be awesome it is even
[00:50:06] better than I thought so thank you so
[00:50:08] much for everything that you shared and
[00:50:10] everybody thank you so much for taking a
[00:50:11] few minutes to spend some of your day
[00:50:13] with us today we thank you for that
[00:50:15] and again just back to the original
[00:50:19] encouragement if you or someone you
[00:50:21] love is in job search please go to
[00:50:23] career.club click on the banner for
[00:50:25] our Thursday calls at one o'clock
[00:50:26] Eastern and we'd love to see you
[00:50:28] there show thank you so much
[00:50:29] thank you okay
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