The Job Search Reset

[00:00:06] Hey everyone, welcome to the Boomband Showcase. I'm Jeff Taylor, I'm your host. And I'm Madison Kiefer, I'm the Showcase sidekick and the players coach. Coach, love it. We're so excited about our show, let's jump right in. Welcome to the Boomband Showcase, guys. How you doing? Hi guys, welcome. Good, how are you? Alright, we got a little style here. Madison, she's the sidekick and she really runs the show and she's going to do some quick introductions.

[00:00:34] Alright, well Jeff, we have two amazing players today. First, we have Rory Kreisberg. She is joining us from Brooklyn, New York and she is a learning and development leader. And we also have Sean Pagan. Sean is from Denver, Colorado and he is a human-centric engineering manager. I had so much fun getting to know both of them. It's going to be an amazing show and let's do this.

[00:01:00] Awesome. You know, we were talking a little bit just before the show and I think one of the most important things about this show is it's an opportunity to highlight each of you. So for Rory and Sean, first of all, why don't you guys say hello? How are we doing? Hello.

[00:01:21] I have dreamed about doing this show and then we've now done it for a year and we've had lots and lots of people get jobs. And I don't know, a few of them have gotten jobs directly from the show, but I think everyone has gotten a chance to do two things.

[00:01:42] One is to be human and be out there and the other is to get some recording and a little bit of legacy work that we can create here that you can then go on and pass this content back out to your network. And so I think there's this idea of always figuring out what do I say to my network? And so here's a chance to share something and so we can give you clips of the work that you guys create today.

[00:02:08] So I have a really important kind of first question that I was asking, you know, what's it like for you out there right now? And I think it's a chance to kind of be honest and open up about what the job search is like. And I ask you to pick a word. Sometimes people pick a phrase to describe that.

[00:02:27] And then I always like to create some tension with a superpower, like something that you have that's uniquely you, that either anchors you during these tough times or actually really like is part of your strength to go about this job search process. So, Rory, why don't I start with you? Welcome. And what's that word? You know, what's it like for you? How long have you been out? About 18 months.

[00:02:55] So since last January and the last January. OK. And so there's a whole group of people out there that are like you. And so let's talk about what that experience has been like. And I'm sort of I'm interested. Are there some phases that you go through? And Sean, I'm going to come to you about it because I think you've also experienced some phases with this. Yes, absolutely.

[00:03:21] So there's been, you know, a lot of doubt in the beginning, you know, just being like, where do I fit in and how could I make a change and really bring myself to be able to make a difference in a new environment, a new job and organization. So that was kind of like first out really a lot of doubt. And then like restructuring and seeing where I truly wanted to be, Jeff. I think for a while in my career, I always looked at how does my work fit into how does my life fit into my work?

[00:03:50] And now I'm in a place where how does my work fit into my life? So I really want to be connected to an organization that could really be a strong culture that supports the growth of their people. And I think that's really what I'm looking for now. And it's been a bit of an adventure. I think if I can pinpoint one word, it's been an adventure and it's been a lot of lessons and things that I wouldn't have normally done while I was working full time. I was able to do. So I'm really grateful for that.

[00:04:17] I did a yoga retreat with a bunch of women back in October and it kind of coincided with my birthday as well. So really taught me to dig deep and take a step back and reset. So that felt really good. And also joining a couple of women's leadership groups where I can go ahead and we read the 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth, the John Maxwell book, and really learn from that, really took a step back, pressed the reset button to say, like, where can I go next?

[00:04:46] So it's been a lot of lessons throughout my experience, Jeff. And now that I've spoken to a close colleague a few weeks ago and she just started the job search back in February and I was speaking to her and giving her some tips and tools that I've learned. And she's like, wow, you've really gotten this down pack, this whole job search thing. I said, no, every day I'm learning more and more. So that's been really helpful to kind of create that toolbox for my job search. Tell me about this book. Go slow. Who's the author?

[00:05:16] Why this book? Back in last February we started, it was the 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth. It's a John Maxwell book and he's a leadership coach and has written several books. But this one in particular kind of every week we talked about a different law of invaluable law of growth. So it really challenges. Who's we?

[00:05:41] Myself and I was invited to as a group of women's leaders that are all Maxwell coaches, Maxwell certified coaches. But I was invited by a former colleague who is now an executive coach and she's a leadership consultant. So she said, why don't you go ahead and join the group with us? And then really it kind of tied into the fact that I'm always a learner, a lifelong learner.

[00:06:05] And it really helped me to kind of put things into perspective to say, this is how I need to approach my job search moving forward. So it happened at the right time, Jeff. It definitely did. That's great. Do you think that some of the books that you've looked at, have they given you good perspective to step back at different points? I know this book in particular, but people always ask me, should I go and read books? And I never know the right answer for that.

[00:06:34] I think if you are a reader, I think books really have a way, even a separate book, not a personal development book. But I've been reading, it's the 365 day daily stoic philosophy. And every day there's a lesson about having, about stoicism and really understanding like what it is to just separate facts from feelings, like to really dive in and there's a lot of growth in there.

[00:07:03] So I feel like, yes, you should read books if you're interested in, you know, it's not all about the noise that we hear from like the news. It's good to be informed and to stay informed. But when you really want to tap back in and help yourself grow, I think books are the way to go. And it could be, you know, regular fiction books too. It could definitely be those as well.

[00:07:23] One of the things I like, I read books that help me in my startup, but I sometimes feel like that's so sort of channeled in a way that, oh, that's really expected that you're reading a book that's about the cold start problem, which is sort of like what I'm working through right now. I think it's great to read. I don't know. One of my favorite books I remember reading quite a while ago was Into Thin Air, which was about climbing Mount Everest.

[00:07:51] And one of the things I loved is that in the intense moments in this book, my mind would not only go to the reading, but it would also write in the margins, like ideas that I had in that moment. And the adrenaline of the book actually like really sparked my idea and creativity. And, you know, so I think that's really cool. Let's think about a superpower that you have that kind of goes along with this adventure. Of course. I have a photographic memory, Jeff.

[00:08:22] And sometimes I spent a long time in luxury hospitality. And when you're in luxury hospitality, you really need to connect with guests and have that situation where you build the relationship and they come to the property to get to know you and not just coming to the property for the sake of visiting the hotel.

[00:08:40] So there were times that I would spend quite a bit of time in the lobby when guests were arriving and because I was in guest relations and I would be able to silently tell the team like this is so and so coming in and this is what they enjoy and ask them about their children. And one of my leaders was like, we need to create a position for you called the caller, like the VIP caller. And that's what you'll do.

[00:09:05] And if it was in the budget, I would have been grateful enough for them to have done that because it was an incredible way for me to connect with people and to remember them. How do you find out? This is so obvious, I think. How do you find out that you have a photographic memory? Like, is it something like you've always had that? I mean, these are dumb questions. I know. No, no, they're not. It's fun.

[00:09:29] When I was a kid, for example, Jeff, my parents and I, when we'd go on vacation, like I would randomly remember like the room number that we were staying in or the name of the restaurant that we went to. Or this was the day that like I can recall it now. We used to go to the Southampton Princess in Bermuda and they had you had the option to build a package where you would book dining at like seven different restaurant outlets. Is that the Pink Hotel? Yes. I actually. And they went through a change of hands. Hey, did you see what I just did?

[00:09:58] You see? Right. But there was two restaurants in particular. The Whaler Inn was on the beach. Yeah. And then there was the Waterlot Inn, which is historic and they're known for Baked Alaska. And I just like could maybe because it connects to food and I love food, but I can remember everything about it. And my dad will be like, I don't know how you remember this stuff. Have you tested this just with like normal stuff?

[00:10:24] Like, you know, go into a room, spend a minute, walk out of the room and you can you can go back and recreate what's there? Yes. Yes. Yes. I've done it with that. We've also done mnemonic devices where, you know, you'll be given a list of words. Maybe there's 20 or 30 words and then they'll ask you to recall. And I would always score the highest. Like there's just ways that your brain can work for you to remember the number, a certain number of words. So I have no idea.

[00:10:51] Do you know what percentage of the population has a photographic memory? It's got to be very, very small. Yeah, I think it is. And it's funny, though, Jeff, you have to train your brain, though, because as I get older, it's not as sharp as it used to be. Oh, it's a lazy photographic brain. Yes. You have to continue to nourish it in that way. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's funny.

[00:11:15] We're going to come over to Sean and one of the things that I remember, I read your post not knowing anything about this scenario where you talked about the fact that you want to work. And that it was like, let's put the pencil down. Let's put the job search aside. But it was that I just genuinely want to work. And I think you talked about the challenge and the collaboration. And I don't remember, maybe like the rhythm of it or something.

[00:11:43] I like music. Am I right? I'm a builder. I like doing stuff. I like whether it's whether it's I don't know. I have an antique car in my garage that I that I dawdle with or build. I've done that since I was a kid. Right. Well, hold on. You dawdle or do you build? Right. Because because you could have an antique car in your garage for your entire life, which would be more of a dawdle. It runs. It runs. And I can make it.

[00:12:11] In fact, I bought this car not running from the second owner because he couldn't figure out how to make it work. And I had it running in like before I left his property. Nice. Nice. What kind of vehicle is it? It's a 2000 BMW E46. Nice. Nice. Antique might be in question, but a classic. I don't know. When does something go from being a modern collector's item to a classic to an antique?

[00:12:41] I think an antique's 100, right? It's like 25 years for some people. I don't know. It's not a classic because I don't think anybody is going to own an E46 for a long time. It looks a little like crap, but it runs great. I had a 70 Porsche before that. So, you know, there's always something to tinker with. I also tinker with my mountain bikes and, you know, home repairs or, you know, whatever. Yeah. I just like to do stuff, right? And I like to do stuff that has a meaning.

[00:13:08] So, you know, work for me is not just about, I don't know, X's and O's. I'm a software engineer, right? So, first of all, it is about ones and zeros. But, you know, but I want to have a reason to get up and go to work, right? I've built a lot of really cool stuff. I've worked with teams that are building a lot of cool stuff, and that's really what I want to do. Yeah. I think the article you read, I think you've commented on a couple of my articles. But, yeah, you know, I started writing articles on LinkedIn just because it kind of gave me an outlet.

[00:13:36] And I'm also a little frustrated with the, you know, you log into LinkedIn or other tools like that. And what you get is a lot of complaints, right? You get, you know, AI is this or the hiring market is that or HR is this. And that stuff's not true. It's people being frustrated. And I think there's some truth to that. But I think there's another side of that too, right? There's good things that come from AI. There's good things that come from changes that we see in the way hiring is done and things like that.

[00:14:03] But I also think that, you know, we're human beings and we tend to lose a lot of what we are as human beings into code and AI and the understanding that people have and the current process that people are using. I mean, I've been working with technically, and I'll put in quotes, AI for about 15 years, right? It's not new technology, even though everybody thinks it's fairly new.

[00:14:30] The LLM, the way people are using them are new. But, you know, it's not necessarily new technology. And it's a lot of math. I mean, that's the, so. Go ahead. Yeah. Sean, let's pull you in around, it looks like you've been out since February or so. Is that right? Yes. Talk to me about your experience looking.

[00:14:57] So, you know, when I first got laid off, so I worked for a small startup company and they had lost a client and they had made some changes. And when I first got laid off, this is no big deal. I'll go out and find a job. And I started looking and what I've noticed, at least for me and the stuff that I'm looking for, and I'm looking for, you know, I would say mid-level to senior level management areas.

[00:15:20] And in those areas, what I'm finding is a lot of companies are trying to combine those areas, right? They're trying to hire somebody that's a manager but also codes 50% of the time or they want you to be a program manager and a project manager as well as an engineering manager. And a lot of stuff is just real generic, you know, real generic job postings and a lot of jobs that are posted. They have hundreds of people apply for them.

[00:15:48] You get a letter that says, you get a generic letter from Workday or some other service that says, you know, hey, we've looked at your resume. It doesn't fit our role. And then two weeks later, they repost the same job opening. So from that kind of frustration, you know, that's kind of what I've been seeing. You know, it's a little different world. I mean, it used to be a little bit, you know, hey, you can go out to your network. I don't think networks are responding the way that they used to. I mean, yes, close friends and people like that.

[00:16:16] But I think there's also, you know, a lot of people are getting pinged by people looking for stuff, right? And it's always a difference. Is it really a networking connection or is it I'm reaching out to you because I want something from you? And, you know, and for me, I've just spent a lot of time helping other people. Like, hey, yeah, I know this person. I'll connect you to that person or me. Have you thought about this? So I try to do that as much, you know, try to help other people as much as the stuff I'm looking as well as going through and looking for that.

[00:16:45] And I've done that through volunteering with local networking organizations here in Colorado, like NoCoNet. And then also, you know, reaching out to friends that I know are looking or having a harder time than I am. I won't say I'm fortunate that I have, you know, some savings set aside and it's not like I'm struggling to pay next week's mortgage or whatever. So I'm probably in a little better place than some people are that are looking. Yeah. So.

[00:17:14] So I read I think one of your articles you talked about just the exhaustion of the the role, the submit, you do the stuff, you get the auto reject and then you get that infinite loop that just kind of keeps on going. What is the superpower that you use to basically fight that? I don't know. I. I'd like to say I could come up with a succinct response. I'm an empath for the most part.

[00:17:42] I wear my feelings on my sleeve. So I would say my superpower is probably my wife because I don't have conversations with her. So communications with her and, you know, that makes me feel better. And then I go out and help other people. And by helping other people, it helps me to relax and move on and look at the OK, that's great. You know, what else can you do? What can you change? What can you, you know, and as I'm helping somebody else, I get those those I like to term them as, you know, aha moments. Oh, yeah, that's what I should be doing, too.

[00:18:11] Or, you know, things along those lines. I think writing I've written for most of my life. You know, I had my first book published when I was in middle school and I've done a lot of poetry and things like that. And so I think writing and music is is kind of a way that gets stuff out of my mind and straightens out what's going on. So I use that a lot. Rory, sorry to interrupt. Are you into poetry? Yes. Yeah. Like I got some weird vibe going on here right now. I just want to just. You love to journal.

[00:18:40] You love to journal. Yeah, I'm using I'm using my photographic memory to kind of put things together, which I think is actually really fun. So we'll come back to that. So I think you just said that your wife is your superpower. I we got to like focus in here. She probably can't come on the interview with you. I'm not saying she couldn't, but I think answers I've heard so far for a superpower. I like it.

[00:19:10] Well, well, so so I heard empath and I've heard. But it's funny, my head of product is an empath. And it's amazing because she can see through the eyes of a whole kind of global set of job seekers. And it really helps us, I think, in thinking about what we offer.

[00:19:32] However, having empathy is a is is one of the superpowers that tends to show up mid conversation in an interview. But it's hard to lead out with empathy because you haven't you can't see it through their eyes until you actually understand what what's happening.

[00:19:53] Right. And so I find that sometimes you have to pair empathy with, you know, that dogmatism or with with some drive. Like one of the things you said in the articles, you said, look, I just want to work.

[00:20:10] So there might be this sort of clarity of like that how you want to cut through it and that that that empathy then becomes the way you help and give as part of this human centric work, which we'll talk a little bit about shortly. Absolutely. I I think this might be a good time. I'm I'm actually very much enjoying listening to the two of you.

[00:20:38] I want to learn more about you. And Madison has spent some time with each of you. And she is like a super important role on this show that that she's interviewed you and she's thought about you. And I found it was hard for someone to present themselves in two or three minutes. But if Madison can do it, that's fun. So that's why I want you to spend some time and let's come back to Rory and let's fill her a couple.

[00:21:07] And let's go back a little bit with what we learned about her background. Awesome. Well, Rory, you know that exceptional experiences never happen by accident. They're built by exceptional people. For more than two decades, you've been creating environments where both employees and customers thrive together. Whether you're designing learning programs, coaching leaders, or ensuring five-star service is going on behind the scenes, you've built a career around developing people and elevating experiences.

[00:21:37] Your journey through world-class hospitality has taught you that great organizations aren't defined by just beautiful buildings, but they're defined by how the people inside of them work. That's why you've spent your career helping teams grow, strengthening workplace culture, and creating systems that empower others to succeed. You don't just train employees. You help them discover their potential. By combining data-driven insights with genuine human connection, you've developed onboarding programs,

[00:22:06] engagement initiatives, and learning experiences that improve performance while making people feel valued. Your experience spans at every level of hotel operations, with multiple departments across some of New York's most prestigious and luxurious properties. That broad perspective has given you a deep understanding of how organizations succeed. You know that it's collaboration, thoughtful leadership, and the commitment to continuous learning,

[00:22:33] and that is what transforms, takes good teams, and makes them exceptional ones. As you mentioned, learning has always been a really big part of who you are. You studied abroad, you earned your master's while working full-time, and you've never stopped feeding your curiosity. You're an avid reader, you're a writer, you love to journal, and you, as we talked about, have a remarkable photographic memory. As a child, you've dominated spelling bees, and you could recite entire poems from your memories alone.

[00:23:03] Today, that same gift makes you the person, like we said, you're the VIP caller, everybody turns to you and they need something to remember that guest's favorite room, a colleague's story, or some small details to make that person feel truly seen and heard. Outside of work, your family and friends are at the center of everything that you do. While you're a proud New Yorker through and through, you do say that there's a little bit of warmth and a little bit of that Southern hospitality charm about you, and that instantly is what people see.

[00:23:32] You love traveling, exploring new places, learning the history behind every destination, and yes, you and I talked about it, you like going to the horse races too, which we totally bonded over because I'm a big horse racing girl myself. You are a true Libra. You somehow managed to jungle countless responsibilities while making it look effortless. Today, you bring together expertise in learning and development, employee experience, talent strategy, and operational excellence.

[00:24:00] You're passionate about helping organizations build cultures where employees are engaged, leaders are empowered, and exceptional customer experiences naturally follow. Because you believe that when people are given the tools, the support, and the opportunity to grow, everybody wins. Rory, you are amazing. Let's dive in more, and it's going to be great. Thank you. Thank you so much. How'd she do? She did amazing.

[00:24:29] So I've got some questions just sort of right off the bat. You, it seems like you did almost like every hotel job. And are you trying to move away from hotels? I'm trying to take what I learned, Jeff, and to bring it to an organization that still has a service element to it, so a hospitality-adjacent organization, and really bring that level of service to that environment.

[00:24:58] I'm looking at, you got undergrad from University of Delaware in hotel management. I went to UMass, which also had a big hotel program. And then you got a master's in HR analytics. It's an interesting sort of bridge, right? And then you're getting into learning and development, which would be a classic corporate role from the hotel.

[00:25:23] Just walk me through where there might be a natural place for you to get hired back into the hotel area, but what moved you across? And I heard you say the service element is hugely important. But let's, for the listeners, let's talk about how you're moving from one industry to another, but maybe with some commonality. Yeah, your words.

[00:25:49] Yeah, so pretty much the intensity of building that service excellence and then translating it into an area where I can show others how to do the same and build up to that level. So that would be in an area, let's say, healthcare, where in a hospital organization, it's becoming more and more prevalent to have that type of level of service within the healthcare field.

[00:26:18] Also in other parts of hospitality, like aviation, for example, where it really, you have a very limited amount of time to create an experience, but within that time, the same level of care should apply. And then in my roles with Ritz Carlton and with Baccarat, always having that touch point of being the person to show the team members how it's done,

[00:26:44] being a learning coach in all of my individual contributor roles, and just being naturally gravitating towards that, Jeff. And then the reason why going back to get my master's degree in HR is because learning development does fall within the HR element, but really helping to build people in that talent strategy in more of that workforce planning element.

[00:27:09] Have you found, as you've been applying for jobs, that they sort of label you as a hotel person? And I don't mean to lead with an answer, but I think one of the things I talk to people about a lot is, I'm a nurse and I really want to get into sales, but people can only see me as a nurse.

[00:27:35] And this is one of the most unfortunate things about our careers is that somehow we end up in a place that might not be the place that we wanted to be. It's just where we got a job and then we get another job and another job. And I think in your case, you're actually sort of guiding your way to new experiences, you know, new adventures, right? And what are people telling you when you go through the interview process or when you try to get these interviews?

[00:28:01] It is a lot of, you know, hospitality dense roles, I think. And even with me looking for learning and development roles, some of them require or ask for five year minimum in the L&D space. And I feel like, you know, but I've done it in capacity, you know, in other roles. It's just not clearly black and white to these organizations. And you do get pigeonholed into hospitality.

[00:28:26] But what I think that hospitality gets discredited for is that you deal with so many different facets of the whole job market. I mean, if you wanted to be in finance, but you can do it in hospitality, there's every bit of an outlet to do so. Sure. Just like with Sean, I mean, technology is huge in hospitality. So people start their tech careers in the hotel space.

[00:28:49] So I really think that there is a kind of misnomer when it comes to coming from a hospitality background to really how does that translate to other fields? Yeah, I wonder sometimes, you know, I'm going to use an opposite example. You're an accountant and you want to be a nurse. And one of the best ways to do that then would be to go be an accountant in a hospital. So you start to get that experience.

[00:29:17] And in your case, I would guess there's a lot of learning and development type opportunities in hospitality. And it may make sense for you to take your dense experience in hospitality and actually lean into your L&D experience right in the hospitality industry as opposed to trying to take it outside to get started. Then you get your five years in and then you can, you know, kind of reach outside. I don't know.

[00:29:45] Like, I haven't had this exact problem, so I'm not really sure sort of what you're encountering. You know, one of the things when you've been out for 18 months, I was thinking about sort of the idea of an audit. And I think Sean wrote a post about the idea of how you potentially should reset and take a look at your processes.

[00:30:11] And I'm hearing you talking about that in your adventure. But at 18 months, I think it's a good time to step back and say, OK, what is working and what is not working? And try to see if you can either work on the narrative or work on the process to see if you can break some process that actually isn't getting you to your goal. So let's talk about it for a minute.

[00:30:41] Like, what do you think? Because you're you're describing yourself as I couldn't I don't think I could repeat what you said about having life fit into work versus work fit into my life. I love that. Like I was like trying to like I was trying to imagine as you were saying that. What does that mean? Because it feels really profound. And then are you experiencing that as part of your growth as you look through this process?

[00:31:10] And where are you in your journey now? So I think my I'm keeping a tracker, Jeff and Madison. So I think my and Sean, I think my number of my count is up to 275 jobs that I've applied for, which seems daunting, you know. Yeah. But within that, I have seen positive changes. I know that I had a huge breakthrough earlier in the year, like in April around that time. And I was sought after for six different opportunities.

[00:31:39] So I started to go through the interview process for those. And they fell off to the wayside for one reason or another. It's not always consistent. Either it's just that I've gotten down to become one of two candidates, strong candidates, and they've gone with the other for one other reason. But I've noticed also having experiences like the conversations and not just going to apply for the sake of applying has been really helpful.

[00:32:08] And starting to reach out to my network at length has been really helpful as well, because I think it reinstills in me my value that I can bring to an organization and just to have that reminder there. But I do agree with what you're saying to be intentional about certain things and to take a step back on the process and see where what's working and what's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

[00:32:32] I looked at your resume, but I don't think I was looking for photographic memory. Is it there? No. I don't know. There's something in your story that I think is not landing that I think the right company would just eat up.

[00:32:58] And I'm almost feeling like it should be in your base introduction of who you are. And don't be scared of it. Get tested by whomever. Right. But I think there might be an opportunity to just in talking about that. It's like, OK, how did that influence every part of every one of my jobs?

[00:33:25] Right. And what could I do in your in your world? You speaking to a company that with with this skill. And it's like if you're the whisperer, you know, like, OK, how will I be a whisperer in your organization? Yeah, it's funny. I saw your dossier. Can you walk us through a little bit of what's here? Of course. Yes.

[00:33:53] So, again, spending my whole career in hospitality. Right. But really getting like a feel for always, you know, having an answer for my teams, having an answer for the guests, like just becoming very natural for me, Jeff. And not being afraid of a challenge, you know, to do problem solving in the moment, you know, putting out the fires that needed to be put out, you know, being the point of contact for people, really making that building those relationships.

[00:34:23] And it was very natural to me. Yeah. Yeah. And figuring out at the time, it was actually after COVID because we went on a six-month furlough. But then I came back to work and said, you know, I really want to give back to myself. So that's why I chose to go back and get my master's degree because I've always been a big proponent of education. And then being able to have the opportunity for a role to open in people operations with the focus on learning and development was just a natural progression for me. And I really.

[00:34:53] Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Well, you're looking at your boom band dossier and anyone out there can come and build it. And one of the things you get is you get a skill print. And one of the things about your skill print that I find is fascinating is that all of your skills have multiple experiences because every circle you see near the bottom, there's one smaller circle right here.

[00:35:23] And that's funny. Neuroscience research. That's funny. And but most of your skills have you have that that skill in multiple places in your career, because I can tell by the size of each of your skills in the skill print. And if you look at your areas of expertise, you can actually go over into your skills and roll over them and you'll see support for many of these skills.

[00:35:51] And you could go and actually read that.

[00:36:21] You see our culinary interests and all. You see our culinary interests and all raising. That's funny. And so I heard I heard I heard you before, but I didn't realize it made the dossier, which is great. You are definitely communicating with Madison here. So I just wanted to show that you've got a real nice kind of broad set of experiences that are you're telling your stories here, which I think is great.

[00:36:49] Right. So let's a couple other observations about you, Rory. One is I looked at your LinkedIn and it seems mostly like you're reposting other people's stuff and you're you're helping people learn. You're you're actually putting articles out there and things that are things that interest you that you think might be of interest to people.

[00:37:18] The one comment that I made is let me see. I'd love I'd love to see you get a little closer to your own story on LinkedIn and you're doing it with your boom band dossier. But I'd like to see you sharing a little bit more of yourself on LinkedIn, I think would be good. And that takes some risk. But you're a writer and you like to journal.

[00:37:43] And I think it'd be great to just talk a little bit about your journey and maybe even this idea of having a photographic memory would be fun to explore. You know, do you think this is something that would be good for employers to know about me? And, you know, here's some examples of it. What do you guys think? You know, like and get some reactions from people. I think it'd be cool. Let's talk about this poetry thing just because it connects over to Sean.

[00:38:12] Sean, I don't remember what I read, but something in LinkedIn was like about poetry. So basically, I might have posted about there's a gentleman. His name is James A. Pearson. He does workshops usually every few months. But he also has a whole poetry book he wrote during COVID, which links to each season of the year. And it's so funny because my favorite season is autumn. That's when I was born.

[00:38:42] So it kind of is like, wow, this is pretty powerful. So he my friend gifted it to me before we went to the yoga retreat as well. And it just it just makes so much sense. Like it ties into the changes that you go through in life. It just really is empowering. But then before that, I would free write poetry because it was easy.

[00:39:04] So I've been doing that since I'm a kid, I think, you know, and my two friends, they said, well, you need to publish, you know, but it's it's that leap of faith, Jeff. It's like, do I really want the world to see what I'm writing? But it's a good thing. And it's it's also therapeutic in a sense. And, you know, you know, that's another that'd be another really cool post is to say, like, look, I write poetry. I don't know. But here's a couple of things I've written.

[00:39:31] I'd love to just talk with people about it and, you know, be nice. Right. You know, something like that would be fun. What what day is your birthday? October 2nd. Yeah, I'm the fourth. So we're we're we're Libras together. All right. How about a couple of fun things? I guess the first thing is one of the articles that I read that you posted are actually maybe it was a Netflix show or something. Was about minimalism. Yes. Do you like that?

[00:40:01] I think it's it's awesome concept. I really think that. And it was funny, Jeff, because they said it came out or premiered like in 2021. But I didn't come across it till this year earlier this year. Yeah. So so I'm going to put you on the spot here. So you've given away everything except for four things. What are those four things that you just could not give away? All right. So that's my journal.

[00:40:30] And does a pen count as a thing? I'll give you just because I want to be entertained. I'll give you the pen with the journal. With the journal. So pen and journal together. Probably my Spotify app. Right. All right. Got to have some music to play while you while you journal. Also coffee. OK. Or, you know, coffee maker. Right. Coffee and coffee maker. Can we put that together? Yeah.

[00:40:59] I'll give you at least a small batch of coffee. All right. And jeans. Jeans? I love my jeans. All right. So let's see. You're going to be standing. You're somewhere in the wilderness. You have your jeans on. That's probably going to be awkward. I know. You've got your coffee maker and coffee. Maybe not power, but but you've got your coffee maker.

[00:41:30] Well, give me manual or power. I'm going to give you I'm going to give you power because you're probably for Spotify. You're going to need it, too. And you're journaling. So, yeah. So what's that? Walden's Pond. You're going to you're going to be the next writer in that ilk. So that's cool. All right. One other. OK. You like to travel. Close your eyes. You can transport to anywhere in the world for five minutes.

[00:41:59] Where do you go and who do you bring? I want to go to the Northern Lights. It's OK. So do you want to go to like Iceland or like. OK. I see the Aurora Borealis and I want to bring my best friends from college. So there's three of them. Yeah. Oh, nice. So you got three to go with you. That's cool. Maybe maybe you can go. Where do you see?

[00:42:29] You can see the Northern Lights in a lot of different places. Northern Canada. I think I guess you're going to pick your spot. All right. I'm I'm excited about what I'm discovering about you and your adventures. And let's let's kind of take a break from Rory and let's talk about Sean.

[00:42:53] Any first, Sean, any any observations about Rory just as you're listening? No, I mean, I think the background sounds fantastic. I think the tying of the skill sets together makes makes a lot of sense. And I actually think we have a lot in common, too, for the way we look at look at coaching and learning and and and even writing. I mean, there are differences, but they're obviously there's some pieces that tie people together. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:21] Are you going to be out there in the wilderness in your jeans as well? Is that I don't know that I would be in jeans. I don't normally wear jeans that often. All right. So what are your pants of choice, Sean? Let's let's get to the really important stuff here. I'm probably wearing shorts. OK, in the wilderness. I'm in an office someplace wearing slacks. I'm probably wearing shorts. Nice. All right.

[00:43:46] I enjoyed I literally virtually met you just through your writing. I spend probably 30 minutes a day exploring people on LinkedIn.

[00:44:04] I explore them in other places, too, but I spend about 30 minutes basically going out and basically sharing my life with other people's lives, either through commenting or through learning or whatever it is. That's that's actually how I came across you. And I think I invited you onto the show just as a comment on one of your posts. Is that is that how you thought about you sent me a DM on LinkedIn about one of my posts?

[00:44:32] And then like a week later, maybe a couple of weeks later, you commented on one of my posts and asked me to get in touch with Madison. Yeah. So the thing I'm I enjoy human centered content. You know, it's funny. You're a human centered engineer. I enjoy human centered content. And so I spend some time in it and I do it in different ways. And I also it connects to my job.

[00:45:01] And so the when I see someone who is searching, I think, you know, being a seeker of life, being a player and it's not going quite as they want it to go. Then I'll typically say, hey, would you like to be involved? How did you find out about this? I attended the warm out conference last September. So, you know, speaker. Ah, that's amazing. Yeah.

[00:45:29] How did I do with that? I think it was fun. I think it was great. You know, Sean, I want to give you some insight. Jeff talked about the age of the resume, you know, and how it's not caught up with the job search. And that was just like light bulb on. You know, it just made so much sense. And knowing that he was starting Boom Band was incredible. Like I actually obviously I participate more on Boom Band than I do on LinkedIn.

[00:45:54] So I just feel like I want to be one of the outliers, you know, that does something differently. So that's probably why I rather repost and comment than share my own. But Jeff, that's definitely a better approach. So, well, there's no better approach. Just I always sort of share what I observe.

[00:46:13] And so, Sean, if we're back with you, I think one of the things I did enjoy was this idea that I want to work and I love to help others. And this idea of collaboration in the daily rhythm of work, it really it was it sang for me like I believed you. And I don't know, there was an image of you, I think biking.

[00:46:40] It was interesting just to see you being in the rhythm of life, even with without work. And I thought it was kind of well presented. I'm kind of curious about your lead with human centric with being a human centric engineering manager.

[00:47:03] Is that part of your scrum training or where where does that come from? Is that actually a job title or I'm going to learn something here? No, it's not. You know, you go through different, I don't know, resume programs. You talk to different. I started working when I was really young.

[00:47:26] So I did my first software engineering job when I was 16 working for the school district because they didn't have anything else to do with me as far as as the computer classes. I was in I was I was leaps and bounds beyond what the instructor was doing and they needed help. And so I started doing that. And so I've been doing this for a long time. And the the thing that ties in for me is because I am an empath and I do wear my emotions on my sleeve, which sometimes is is a superpower.

[00:47:55] And sometimes it's whoops, you know, let me step back. But human centric to me, it has two real meanings. One is I think that if you're managing people and you're in an organization, I don't care whether it's software engineering or anything else. If you take care of the people, the people will take care of the job. And I see too many, especially in the tech fields. And I don't have a lot of experience in other fields. I can't speak to those.

[00:48:18] But in the tech field, you get a lot of people that are really great engineers and they're really good and they they get promoted and they get promoted to a position where they're now managing people and they still want to be engineers. And that's great. And and we need those people. We need those people that want to be dedicated engineers. But they're not necessarily managers or maybe they're managers, but they're not leaders. And so you have that human side of it.

[00:48:42] Managers have to take a responsibility to take the time to manage, grow, care for, coach, do all of those things to bring their teams along. And the benefit is the bottom line. But it's also the people. As the people grow, the bottom line gets better. The people do things. But at the same time, we build software and software is used by somebody. Right. It's not. It's not made for, you know, it makes your life easier. Right.

[00:49:09] The reason we use software, the reason we use AI, the reason we use these tools is because they do things that are either mundane, repetitive, or they give us an advantage in doing something. But they're built for a human being to use. So those are also human centric. And so if you've, you know, you read through my stuff. I've gone through like Stanford's D School of Design, you know, human design, things like that. And we have to build products that people are going to use.

[00:49:35] And whether you're at company A or you're at a startup or Hewlett Packard, if people can't understand how to use it and it's becoming too difficult for them to use, then they're not going to use it. And one of the biggest things that we ever got complaints on at HP is we'd build these huge IT-based software packages. And somebody would come in and say, oh, we've been a customer of yours for 10 years, but we're going to go with competitor X. And you'd sit down and talk to them and they'd say, well, we need to be able to do, you know, X, Y, and Z. And with your tool, we can only do A, B, and C. You say, well, wait a minute.

[00:50:05] Our tool will do X, Y, and Z too. But you never make it simple enough or understandable enough for them to do that. So it's kind of a little bit of a play on words and trying to get the interesting statement down. So human-centric engineering to me is, one, is taking care of the people that you work with. And that's both up the chain and down the chain. But then also making sure that the products you're building are really usable by the people that you're trying to build them for.

[00:50:30] And in some cases, that's, you know, that can be both the administration side as well as direct customers, you know, and those kind of things. So that's the... Do you think that this is something people understand? I get a lot of good feedback on it. You know, so I do think it's something people understand. I also think that it's kind of a catchy line for people that are not necessarily in my business. Yeah.

[00:51:00] You know, where they can kind of... They can understand human-centric. But if I say I'm a software engineering manager, they think of, I don't know, Microsoft or, you know, something along those lines. And, you know, a lot of the stuff, especially a lot of the stuff I'm looking at now is not necessarily with what would be, I don't know, classified as the classic software type companies, right? Sure. Every company has software these days. You know, your friend Hal's, I don't know, plumbing business has got software that's probably running on it. They probably have a rack of servers.

[00:51:29] They're probably trying to figure out how to use AI or other types of intelligence and things like that. So, yeah, it's kind of my way of, I guess, one, I don't like talking about myself, right? Yeah. I'm a manager. Like, I build up teams. And so I've had to go through the process of like, okay, how do I talk about myself? How do I put things into my, you know, how do I use symbolism and things like that to get words that convey things to people instead of saying, you know, I don't know.

[00:51:59] Oh, I'm a really good software engineering manager. Sure. You know, that doesn't have that kind of blood. So it's a term that I started playing with, you know, trying to figure out like, what do I want? What kind of an engineering manager do I want to be? How can I kind of come up with that? Yeah. I typed that in one. I was, I don't know if I was at a, I think I was at a networking meeting and they were practicing your, I don't know, what used to be called elevator pitch. And I think I stuck it in there and it kind of resonated with people. So I've kind of left it there.

[00:52:27] And it does get a lot of comments and people ask me about it. Yeah. I wonder if you did, if you had two different versions of your profile where one was that you're a software engineering manager and you highlighted being a human centric manager and leader as part of that process and then keep it your way and just see what happens.

[00:52:52] I picked right up on it and I was like, okay, am I missing something that I don't, this didn't, wasn't as familiar to me, which actually makes it stand out. But does it stand out for the right reasons? That was one of the things that I was exploring. And I think it's a huge message that it very much fits who you are. It's just a matter of how do you lead with it or do you actually have it be one of the anchor points of your objective or your introduction?

[00:53:20] And I might try it both ways just to see if you might be getting stopped, especially when you talk about the fact that you're getting auto rejected. A lot of times in matching in the ATS is they're looking for very specific wording and yours is different. And every system is different the way it calculates and some may reward it and some may not. But that might just be something to experiment with.

[00:53:49] One of the other things that I really liked is you describe yourself as a technical steward. And I think it's very complementary to that. And that sort of guiding light, I think, is something that is something you really can offer. And so tell me about your experience. And remind me, Rory, I want to come back to your numbers. What do your numbers look like, Sean, in terms of what you've applied for?

[00:54:21] I've actually made an effort not to track the number of resumes that I've sent out to people. I track them. I mean, I know who they are. So if somebody calls me three months later, I can go back and look at that. I have that tied. So one of the things that I did when I stepped out of my other role in March, April is I also do a lot of experimentation on my own. Right. So I try to stay current on what's going on. I built my own rag system, which is a retrieval augmented system for AI.

[00:54:50] So I have my own local LLM that I use that it's only connected to my systems within the walls of my house and not to the public side. So I have done things like put all my resumes, all the jobs that I post to, all of the connections and communications that I have. I list all of those things in there and kind of keep track of it that way. So I don't have a number and I purposely don't because if I, for me, if I dwelt on, oh, gee, I've sent out 300 resumes.

[00:55:19] I've gotten four interviews. I've had this. The numbers game would just play havoc in my mind. So I choose to do that. Yeah. The thing I was going to share is that I know someone that applied for 921 positions, I think, over the course of about 15 weeks. It's almost an impossible thing to do. And, you know, the 300 gave no response.

[00:55:46] 300 got back and said, thank you for sending your resume. We'll look at it or consider you for future roles. And, you know, 300 of them had the auto-reject thing that you talk about where they were turned down within six hours. Clearly, it's a computer turning them down as opposed to or most likely other than being a person. And 17 interviews, about half of them, which were automated or a bot or whatever.

[00:56:12] And then two volunteer jobs and one offer and accepted that offer. And so that's just showing, Rory, that there are some people, it takes about 100 applications to get an interview. And so if you think about that, if you're at 230 or whatever it was and at one point you had six interviews, you're really ahead of the game. And I think for you, Sean, because you don't count them, like who cares, right?

[00:56:41] But I think the idea that you're actually actively using your network and some of the things you suggested around your reset and trying to get to real conversations and get the intent right, all of that aligns with the idea of also keeping your volume up and keeping your activity sharp. And some people get tired or emotionally just can't do it, you know, five or six applications a week. And that's about all they got.

[00:57:08] And so if you think about there, you're 16 weeks in, you've basically just hit your 100 or whatever, you know, and so you're going to be challenged just in the numbers. So that's just a suggestion for both of you. I'm kind of curious, Sean, with you. Let's talk about AI. We haven't talked about AI much in this. You're talking about a local rag system.

[00:57:33] Are you using Cloud Code and are you starting to build like agent-to-agent systems? Are you pushing your own envelope in a way that – because I'm hearing a lot of chatter about this. What are you talking about out there? You know, well, so to answer that, I have to go back in my history a little bit.

[00:57:58] So working in my previous roles in enterprise, I actually had data scientists, ML engineers, and software engineers reporting to me working on observability tools, which were basically stacking algorithms. So, you know, the modern idea – so if you're talking about data science, data exists out there in large places, right? There's – every company is collecting data. IT companies, for their own purposes, are collecting data on their systems. I'm not talking about personal or individual data or things like that.

[00:58:28] And they want ways to be able to track that stuff, right? And so they've been looking at this stuff for years. So for me, the whole idea of how do we use this data? What do we do with it? Why do we have it? Is it – you know, is it contained? Is it – you know, is it managed data? Is it unmanaged data? What are we doing with it? It's always been part of kind of the discussion about how we're using it. How can we help our customers with it? How do we make their lives easier? And when I say customers, that's internal or external.

[00:58:56] So fast forward, the last job that I was working at Trexas, we were actually using ChatGPT Professional to do a lot of the stuff that people are doing today with Claude and other code like that, where we actually tied it into our build systems. Our documentation was generated by large language models. So, you know, you could go in and ask our system internally for things like, hey, I want to do this. What are the patterns that I'm using here?

[00:59:25] How does that relate back to our documentation? So I've been doing that for quite a while. Sure. You know, and we're also building pipelines out of that to be able to say what are our bug counts? What are our tech debt counts? Things along those kind of lines. And so for me, it was just like the next revolution was understanding how to make a rag work. So my rag is built using Olama, which is, you know, loaded down onto a Mac. And that was fun, getting Python to work on a Mac properly without video memory.

[00:59:55] So those things are just to kind of keep my skills up. I mean, I'm not really a coder anymore. I understand code. But if you want me to review, you know, your Java code for something, I'm probably the last person you'd want to do that. Maybe not the last person. I understand it enough, but I'm not, you know, so I'm not a coder anymore. I mean, I can still build stuff and do things like that. But mostly I just do it to kind of keep, you know, so I know what the flow is. I know, kind of know how things work. You know, I play around with Claude. I probably use Gemini more than others.

[01:00:24] I also kind of like, I kind of hate to say this, but I kind of like Amazon's Alexa. Their LLM actually has some really interesting features and does some stuff like that. So I mean, I do use it a little bit for things like that. I did use some AI prompting to write my Python code because I'm not an expert in Python by any means.

[01:00:46] I've used it, but, you know, I used some AI prompting to write my Python code for my local RAG just to make sure I was doing things right. Plus also for ease of use because I can change out the LLM that I'm using. So I can use a LLM. I can use a public one. I can use a different local one if I want to. There's like 12,000 different LLMs. Sure. Don't quote that number, but there's a lot of people in the U.S.

[01:01:14] There's a lot of people in China that are working on different types of LLMs for different uses and different use cases. Some of them are for low memory systems. Some of them are for laptops, things like that where you can build stuff. So just playing with those and kind of getting an idea of what they can do with each other, which ones I like. And it's more of a gut feel thing, but it keeps me connected to what's going on with a lot of this stuff. It's just like I've never programmed in Go, but I know what Go formats look like. I know some engineers that like it.

[01:01:43] I know reasons why some engineers don't like it. You know, things like that. So it's just kind of a – it just keeps me fresh in that kind of a world. I'm not really trying to do anything with it at this point other than making sure I understand what it is so that whatever my next role is, I'm more than an idea about it. Yeah. So let's talk about what is that dream role for you now? Because I think you said it.

[01:02:11] You said that people are looking for player coaches, right? They're looking for someone that's actually goading and also managing. And so what's the ideal job for where you want to be at this point?

[01:02:25] I think that if I had to describe the perfect role, it would probably be a smaller company, perhaps a startup, perhaps somebody that's a little bit further along where they really need somebody to come in and work with their engineering teams to not only guide the engineering teams, which I can do, but also do you have other stuff that you want done, right? Like Trex is one of the things that I did when I came on board there.

[01:02:48] They had just switched to Azure DevOps from Jira and they had it set up, you know, they used it out of the box and then they made a bunch of customizations to try to do things, but they didn't tie it into intro. They didn't tie it into, you know, any of their pipelines. They were using smart sheets for other stuff. And so one of the things that I looked at when I moved to their architectural team is I started looking at the problems that the engineers were having, right? They had like, I'm going to say like 25 states for where software was in.

[01:03:17] And so it was, you know, every time you moved a piece of software, it did something with you, you had to go into the tool and change the state. And the engineers were all asking, well, what's the next state? How do I know what that state is? So we, you know, I talked to all people, streamlined that forum, redid the governance in ADO, connected ADO to ENTRA, made sure that when somebody new came on, you could add them to ENTRA, would automatically give them their ads to ADO, out to product board, which our customers use. So let's, I think you could talk about this ad nauseum.

[01:03:46] And I think the beauty of this is you're a problem solver. And I think you're used to being one of the guys that really knows what's going on in the room around engineering. And I think that you can be a real resource. And then I think the question is, every single one of these engineering groups is hammering away at LLMs. They're, you know, they're using, you know, Cloud Code and, or whatever their coding buddy is.

[01:04:12] And then they're all collaborating with each other and they're, they're all opening up and working on each other's projects. And I'm seeing things are changing very, very quickly in engineering right now. So, like, how do you keep yourself in the middle of that? And I think one of the ways to do it is just offer yourself out.

[01:04:31] And, you know, you might even go look at a couple of startups in the Denver area and just say, hey, can I, there's probably some incubators or some startup, you know, regional stuff happening there where you could just go in and say, look, let me, let me see if I can help you guys, you know, organize what you're working on. And I think the thing I always liked about these kinds of settings is that the head fake was really that I was learning, even though I was actually offering my expertise.

[01:04:59] And I think this might be really good for you just as a suggestion to like totally immerse yourself because these young engineers, they barely know how to code now. Right. You know, what we were talking about, even within our coders, you know, 95% of their code is now being written by one of the, you know, coding buddies. And, and so all of a sudden you don't even know your code as well as you used to know it. Right. And that's completely changed in the last two years. Yeah.

[01:05:26] And so, you know, kind of continuing to immerse yourself in that just so you, you sort of get, keep the pedal on the metal, you know, as it relates to that kind of activity, I think would be good. Yeah, absolutely. Let's have some fun. You're in your garage. Sean didn't get to hear his bio yet. I mean, now I feel like we know so much about Sean. Oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Let's, let's do that. I want to hear my bio from him. Yes, yes, we did.

[01:05:55] I just, I just made the bridge. So go Madison. All right, Sean, you believe the best technology isn't measured by how complicated it is. It's measured by how much easier it makes people's lives. For more than two decades, you've been building the systems, the teams and the cultures that keep innovation moving forward. You focused on creating environments where engineers can do their best work. Your philosophy is simple.

[01:06:22] Remove the friction, build trust, be transparent, and empower great people to solve hard problems. You are self-made. You are a builder. You landed your first software programming job while still in high school. And like you said earlier, you earned your first paycheck at just 16 years old. After serving in the Marines, a simple favor for a friend's dad, which was helping him set up his computer, really helped set you on your path that you were meant to be on from the beginning.

[01:06:51] From installing networks in some of the biggest casinos in Las Vegas, to leading engineering initiatives at some of the world's most recognized technology companies, you helped build products and platforms that have generated nearly $200 million in revenue. Throughout your career, you've led engineering teams, guided enterprise infrastructure, modernized cloud platforms, and embraced AI power development workflows long before they became mainstream.

[01:07:20] You have a unique ability to simplify the complex, help organizations modernize while making life easier for people building the technology. But your greatest accomplishment has never been the technology itself. It's the people behind it. You thrive on coaching engineers into architects, managers, and technical leaders. You create cultures where curiosity is encouraged, ideas are welcomed, and psychology safely allows people to do their best work.

[01:07:48] Watching someone have that aha moment is really one of your favorite things. Colleagues see you not just as a manager, but as a mentor and a coach and someone who always has their back. In fact, the impact that you've had on people around you has even led to some previous employers hiring you back, which is truly the ultimate testament to how you lead and your character. You're a husband, you're a father, you're a dog dad, you're an avid mountain biker, and you've even taught kids how to mountain bike race as well.

[01:08:17] You're a writer, and you even used to play competitive soccer. Plus, we talked about you have some Phoenix roots. You went to high school out there, which was cool because, as you know, I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, and you love a good rodeo. Your journey is really proof that curiosity, hard work, and investing in people can take you anywhere. You help people do their best work while building something meaningful together.

[01:08:44] You are truly a leader, and I feel like we already know all of this about you because we kind of did this backwards, but I still just wanted you to kind of have your moment. And it's just really been so genuinely great getting to know you, Sean. Woo, I'm glad. You know, it's funny. You sort of get caught up in the moment, and I was liking the connection between Rory and Sean. We just sort of kick right in.

[01:09:07] And I like the story, and I like the connection and the teaching moments, and I think it's great. Did you miss anything, Sean? I don't think so. That sounds like somebody besides me, but you should. Yeah, yeah. Never mind bringing your wife to the interview. You should bring Madison. I'll let Madison write the interview, and then I'll just jump in. Yeah, that's right.

[01:09:34] So since we're doing things backwards, I wanted to have a little fun with you, Sean. You're in your basement office, which is amazing. Your kingdom, your man cave. I want you to look around you. I want you to find an object and bring it back to me and tell me a story about this object. Oh, geez.

[01:10:05] But we have to do it today, Sean. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I cleaned up. So here's an object. It's a clock, and it's a tile. So my daughter, Sierra, who's wonderful, she grew up with, unfortunately, a hereditary condition called dyslexia. And when she was in school, she struggled with different things, but creating stuff is something she always liked to do.

[01:10:35] So she made this clock for me. I'm going to wipe off the dust because it is sitting over in the corner. It's signed with her name, and it's kind of like a Monopoly game board around the outside with different animals and a frog in the middle. And so, yeah, it's one of the things that I keep on my desk or near my desk over in the corner. We're in the corner of the desk. How old was she when she made that for you?

[01:11:02] I'm going to say she was probably, well, it was made in 07, according to the date stamp on it. So in 07, she would have been 10. 20 years ago. Nice. Nice. Amazing. How many kids do you have? I have one biological daughter, and then we have two bonus daughters. So we did exchange student programs while my daughter was, first one was in when she was in middle school, and the second one was in high school.

[01:11:28] And so we've made those families now our friends and our family for many years now. Beautiful. All right. One more thing. This is going to be interesting for you, I think. What would you do differently if you weren't afraid of being judged? Interesting question. If I wasn't afraid of being judged, because I don't, yeah.

[01:11:59] I don't know how much different I would be. I'd probably be a little bit more outspoken than I am, and I'm fairly reasonably outspoken now. But that's the only thing I could really think of. Internally, I process being judged by other people. Externally, I don't let it bother me. That's, you know, the years that we have. I mean, I know we talked earlier. You're a little bit older than I am. But I've been around for a while.

[01:12:26] Time in my life when other people's opinions carried a lot more weight in my own brain than they do now. And I don't know if that's just getting older or it's learning. It's learning how to process things and do things a little bit differently. I mean, I said earlier I wear my emotions on my sleeve. I used to think that was a bad thing. I think in the right control, the right context, it's actually a good thing now. So, you know, you learn and you change as you get older.

[01:12:53] So, you know, at this point in my life, what somebody else's opinion of me, beyond my wife and my network, I suppose, really doesn't matter to me. Doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. Rory, what are your observations here? Just looking at Sean across the screen.

[01:13:14] Well, the whole tie-in with Empath and his human-centric approach to software, I know that, you know, as we progress and as technology gets, you know, to become more prevalent in everyone's lives, and we have five generations in the workforce right now, you know, some of them don't even want to be bothered. So it's funny, like, my dad runs a program still on, like, Lotus 1-2-3, because he knows that it's not going to break down.

[01:13:40] But knowing that, like, I can see in Sean the way that he wants to approach it, make sure that technology is accessible to people and make sure that it's not giving them an extra headache or, you know, I can see that through how he talks about software and he's passionate about it. And I think it's important to know when you hold passion in your workspace, you know, it makes it easier for you to connect with others and show them that, you know, this can really make a difference. And I can make a difference in your life, I being Sean.

[01:14:09] So I can really see that shine through in what he has to offer, you know. And I think it's great that he published a book as a young child. I mean, that's a pretty big feat. And, you know, you don't get to say that often and not many people can say that. So I think you should definitely, you know, celebrate that, Sean. I think it's great. Yeah. What was your book about, Sean? The first book was Bertha, A Modern Pioneer.

[01:14:35] And it's actually a book that was written from a bunch of notes and diaries and stuff from my grandmother and my grandfather. So it's basically a life story of him being an American Indian and a Texas, New Mexico Ranger and her being part of the Bell family and her trip across the U.S. in a Conestoga wagon out to New Mexico where she met Khan and just little anecdotes from their life mostly. It was very cool.

[01:15:05] It was a school writing contest, and I think it was published in the college book system by Rand McDowell at some point in time. Wow. And another book? I did a book of – I've done a couple books of poetry, you know, not very large press type stuff that had been published at various times in high school. And I did another one when I was playing around with college. Very cool. Rory, now you've got to publish your poetry.

[01:15:36] Yes. Yes. That's good. Well, I feel like this two-person format is great. Just giving a chance – typically we would go off and do an interview in a breakout room and then come back and you wouldn't get a chance to hear each other's stories. And I think that it's fun to see the commonality and also see the common struggle.

[01:16:02] And, you know, when I think about the exhaustion and the sort of – the negative roteness of the job search process that you described, Sean, and I put that with the really positive spin of adventure of being out of work for the last 18 months.

[01:16:24] And I think with Rory, the skills we uncovered in this process that I think you could trumpet a little bit more, which I think would be fun. And, you know, how we explore Sean being an empath in a world that maybe doesn't always take enough time to reward the empath. And I think that's unfortunate about our world.

[01:16:49] And I think that one of the things that AI is doing is making us go faster, but it's also starting to have everyone pause a bit and celebrate this human-centric nature of who we are. And so I think there's a renaissance in the works, and I think that that, Sean, for you plays well to your strengths. You know, I appreciate – I always have a lot of gratitude when people share their lives and take the risk.

[01:17:19] And, Madison, thank you for not allowing me to go completely off script and miss that wonderful background of Sean. But I want to thank you both for being on the show, and we'll get this out in the next couple weeks and, you know, kind of trumpet your successes. And feel free to talk to Brian, who produces the show, in the background here to get a clip of whatever you'd like to be able to share in your networks.

[01:17:46] And we just – we want people to have fun and to be able to express themselves. Do you feel like you're in a safe place? I guess that's a good question. Yeah. Sean's like, well, maybe. I don't know. Good. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed hearing about Rory. I enjoyed the conversation. So, yeah, I think it's great. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[01:18:11] Well, one of the things I always ask is you don't have to love every aspect of your life, but give me a sign that you love your life. And it's just putting your hands in the air and woo! You guys did it! I'm not. Thanks. I'm very appreciative of having you guys on. And we will see you out in the world. If you're interested in hiring Sean or Rory, getting in touch with them is easy. You can just reach out to showcase at boomband.com.

[01:18:40] You can reach out to madison, madison at boomband.com. And we'll get you connected. You can find both Sean and Rory on boomband. You can also find them both on LinkedIn. And I look forward to reading more of your stories. And thank you for being on the show. Bye, guys. Thank you so much. All right. That's a wrap for this week. What a great show. One of the things I love is this opportunity to be human. Tell your stories. Get away from those keywords.

[01:19:09] If you want to meet any of these players, or maybe you even want to be on the show yourself, email showcase at boomband.com to connect. Bye, guys.