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[00:00:00] Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining our fifth podcast in the Five Talents That Really Matter podcast series. Joining us again, of course, are the two authors of the Five Talents That Really Matter, Barry Conchi and Sarah Dalton. And what we started doing in our last podcast is doing a bit of a deep dive in each of the five talents. So we're going to continue that today. Today we're going to be talking about harnessing energy. We're going to be talking about increasing energy energy.
[00:00:30] Increasing Connectivity and Exerting Pressure. And one of the things I think that we learned in the last podcast is that these things are connected. You know, setting direction is connected to controlling traffic and setting directions also connected to harnessing energy. And so we have this really great web of talents that when put together really define what extraordinary leadership is. And if there's ever a time,
[00:01:00] I think in our history as a country, we could actually use extraordinary leadership today. So let's start out with harnessing energy. And I will tell you, and I don't mean to usurp the podcast here, but I will tell you the absolute best example of an organization that does not harness energy was from one of my favorite vintage films called Joe vs. the Volcano.
[00:01:28] And it had Meg Ryan. And it had Meg Ryan. And it had Tom Hanks. And Tom Hanks belongs to an organization that has no energy. So whenever he walks into work, there's this theme song that plays,
[00:01:41] do-dee-do, do-dee-do, do-dee-do, to tell you there is no energy. And what we know is when organizations have energy, that they are able to get extraordinary things done.
[00:01:55] So let's start with talking about getting extraordinary things done through harnessing energy. So Sarah, I'm going to throw that to you.
[00:02:05] You know, in the last episode, we talked about the different things that motivate leaders. And this is really what harnessing energy is about, right?
[00:02:14] It is, it asks the question of how high your standards are for yourself and for other people. And leaders are going to be motivated by different things. For some people, it's a pure achievement drive, this constant push to do more, to achieve more.
[00:02:31] Now, when you don't have that kind of push to keep going and to achieve more, you get, you get that theme song that you just hummed for all of us.
[00:02:40] People are way more selective about where they spend their time and what they want to sign themselves up to, right?
[00:02:47] So that's just one facet of what harnessing energy might look like. Another is a competitive drive to win and to beat people, where I'm measuring my success against other people outside of myself.
[00:03:02] Now, you plug a really competitive leader into a company. They tend to look outside of the walls of their organization at what their competitors are doing. And we always say that competitors are learners, right?
[00:03:16] Looking at who's doing it better than they are. And as they're setting goals and setting a direction in their own business, they're trying to figure out how to beat the people who are doing the best.
[00:03:27] Another way that you might motivate and drive people towards better outcomes is by looking at the opportunities that exist rather than just the most obvious problems, right?
[00:03:39] And that's where you might get someone who's got a really strong commercial mindset, where we're not just looking at the obvious things that we know that we have to solve.
[00:03:48] There are bigger opportunities for growth. There's an upside over here and nobody's even talking about it.
[00:03:55] And those are just a few examples of all the different ways that you can harness the energy of the organization.
[00:04:01] But the idea is that leaders and people are motivated by different things.
[00:04:06] We've got to figure out what that is and then drive people to outcomes that they themselves might not be that comfortable with.
[00:04:14] And that's where we need leaders setting a really strong standard.
[00:04:17] One of the things I like about how you've put the five talents together is I take what you just said about harnessing energy and then I take the talent of increasing connectivity.
[00:04:28] I can absolutely tell you that if people in an organization are connected to each other, teams are connected to each other and they do have this shared purpose and they are driven by meaning.
[00:04:44] It seems to be a multiplier for energy.
[00:04:49] It is. I think there's a big conversation going on right now about work from home.
[00:04:55] Oh, yeah.
[00:04:56] And there seems to be an inherent tension in this discussion.
[00:05:00] I don't think it's necessarily helpful.
[00:05:04] But it seems as though you're either on one side of the fence or another.
[00:05:08] And I think we'd rather look at it in a slightly different way and say, you know, we're social animals.
[00:05:16] The whole idea about being connected to other people in an organization is that it's fun doing things together.
[00:05:23] But if you can achieve that and have some people working from home sometime all to the good.
[00:05:28] But if it gets in the way of that, the question we have to ask is what's being lost by people not being present with each other?
[00:05:36] And that social aspect of work, you know, we might not fully understand the price we're paying for working from home until some years later.
[00:05:46] But there has to be a benefit from people being together and rubbing shoulders together and sharing war stories together.
[00:05:53] So when you think about that balance between, you know, harnessing energy and connectivity,
[00:06:00] the way I think of it is there are things that drive you as individuals that make you get out of bed on a cold Thursday morning in winter
[00:06:10] and want to go to work early because, you know, you just love it.
[00:06:13] You can't think of anything else to do.
[00:06:16] You know, versus those people who want to do that for external reasons.
[00:06:22] It's where, you know, if I can think of, you know, six organizations that we can take out of business,
[00:06:29] then I'm going to get out of bed on a winter's morning for that purpose.
[00:06:34] You know, think of that that drives you as an individual against that that drives you as a collective.
[00:06:40] I mean, some of the best teams I've worked with had that shared endeavor where, you know,
[00:06:47] we were all raring to go chomping at the bit.
[00:06:51] And you have to think about it in terms of what motivates the individual and what motivates groups collectively.
[00:06:59] And I think great leaders, you know, from the research that we did into the five talents,
[00:07:03] you know, seem to be able to strike that balance really well.
[00:07:07] Now, you have to remember that, you know, all the research into the assessment that we did predated COVID.
[00:07:14] And it predated the whole work from home construct.
[00:07:19] It's going to be good for us to do some testing over the next few years to see whether those characteristics still hold true.
[00:07:25] But we think they will be holding true.
[00:07:29] We do think there's a ubiquitous feel to these things,
[00:07:33] that the kind of things that motivate people and inspire them to act are going to be pervasive over different times and different circumstances.
[00:07:42] There are two other things I wanted to add to what Sarah said, you know, with respect to harnessing energy.
[00:07:51] Some people get a strong sense of energy through their perceptions of their importance, perceptions of their contribution.
[00:08:02] You know, if I feel that, you know, there's a big challenge out there and, you know, I see myself as the one who can step into that breach and lead people forwards.
[00:08:14] That can be a real strong driver for people.
[00:08:16] That can give people a lot of energy.
[00:08:18] We sometimes see it.
[00:08:20] I'll give you this example.
[00:08:22] We sometimes see it in a big office block when a fire alarm goes off.
[00:08:27] Now, the thing about big office blocks is that they have fire wardens appointed and there's a nominated person or groups of people on each floor and the rest of it.
[00:08:38] Leaders who've got a sense of significance, that kind of self-awareness of their presence as a leader, they don't care whether they're fire wardens or not.
[00:08:48] They stand at the top of the stairs and start directing people.
[00:08:50] Right.
[00:08:51] Because they just have that presence in themselves.
[00:08:54] And that really inspires people to act.
[00:08:58] Other people, you know, are driven because they salivate over numbers and balance sheets, budgets and those kinds of things.
[00:09:11] I'm one of those.
[00:09:12] I really like numbers.
[00:09:14] I can barely go to a social event without bringing three spreadsheets with me.
[00:09:18] But if you think about that from a motivational perspective, just the idea of being able to measure things and measure the impact.
[00:09:28] I love measuring the impact of things.
[00:09:32] And I like that measurement to tell me a story about either my effectiveness or a group's effectiveness or an organization's effectiveness.
[00:09:41] So building on those three elements that Sarah talked about, you know, this harnessing energy, there are lots of different types of energy to draw together.
[00:09:51] And in the book, we try to explain all of these with respect to the ways that different leaders might show up in a broad talent like harnessing energy.
[00:10:04] One of the things I want to go back to, and Sarah, we had talked about this pretty recently.
[00:10:12] You know, we talk about setting direction and harnessing energy.
[00:10:16] You get people excited about going a particular direction.
[00:10:19] And then you get to exerting pressure.
[00:10:22] When we're talking about exerting pressure, you ask the question, well, we have the direction.
[00:10:28] What if they don't want to go?
[00:10:30] What if, you know, so here's the plan, here's the strategy, rah, rah, rah.
[00:10:37] And, you know, you're at the pep rally.
[00:10:41] People are looking at you like, we're not going there.
[00:10:43] So, and look, this happens, I think, at organizational levels all the time.
[00:10:48] Not everybody's going to be engaged on every strategy and every piece of direction.
[00:10:55] How do you deal with that?
[00:10:56] When we talk about exerting pressure, I think the underlying idea there is that you've got to get people to act and commit to the path that is right for the organization.
[00:11:12] And not everyone will agree the first time.
[00:11:15] That's okay.
[00:11:16] Now, part of what we talked about good direction setting looks like is that you involve people in the discussions about where it is we're going so that you give them time to prepare and contribute to the changes that will come.
[00:11:29] But even still, you're going to meet resistance.
[00:11:33] Yeah.
[00:11:34] And one of the talent characteristics that we talk about in the book about how you change people's minds is that you need to play the long game and persuade people to the path that you know is right.
[00:11:48] And the thing about persuasion and persistence is that I'm going to change your mind.
[00:11:54] It's not about compromising and making sacrifices on the issues that are important to me.
[00:12:01] Right?
[00:12:02] So really good persuasion and persistence means I'm going to get you to the other side of this.
[00:12:09] I think people work.
[00:12:10] Yeah, go on, Barry.
[00:12:13] I'm going to add one element to it.
[00:12:15] I think sales organizations have known about this tension for a long time because they say things like, we'll feed you when we get there.
[00:12:25] So we'll give you enough fuel to keep the tank full.
[00:12:28] So let's say we're driving in a car to a particular direction, in a particular direction to a certain destination.
[00:12:34] We'll give you enough fuel to get there.
[00:12:36] But the reward will be when you get there.
[00:12:39] And we've often used incentives and goals as a means of driving a strong sense of compliance.
[00:12:47] So we exert pressure that way.
[00:12:50] We say good things happen when you get there.
[00:12:52] Bad things happen if you don't.
[00:12:56] Now, the extent to which you think that's acceptable or not will depend largely on your philosophical point of view.
[00:13:03] But it's a very effective mechanism.
[00:13:06] The other thing, and this is something that a lot of people will immediately resist when I say it, and that is force people.
[00:13:17] Yeah.
[00:13:18] You can actually force them.
[00:13:21] You can say, you go in this place whether you like it or not.
[00:13:25] By the way, the door's over there.
[00:13:27] Now, in a tight labor market, that's not a very effective or recommended strategy.
[00:13:33] And I certainly don't advocate it.
[00:13:36] But I illustrate it to say it can be effective.
[00:13:39] But it's only ever effective in the short term and for a short amount of time.
[00:13:43] Yeah.
[00:13:44] It's never a sustainable means of encouraging people to do things.
[00:13:49] In fact, the word encouraging doesn't really fit.
[00:13:52] Force and encouragement are words used in the same sentence.
[00:13:56] But you can force people.
[00:13:57] And I think traditional leadership methods in the past have probably lent a little bit on that, where they say, well, I have, well, not authority, but I have power over you.
[00:14:09] Yeah.
[00:14:10] I call the shots.
[00:14:12] And tough.
[00:14:13] You don't like it?
[00:14:15] Then clear off.
[00:14:16] So I think what Sarah was talking about in terms of persuasion and involving people in the journey, setting the direction and defining the journey is how you counteract that.
[00:14:27] But there are still some fairly traditional leaders out there who think the stick is more effective than the carrot.
[00:14:34] I wonder what you think of this.
[00:14:35] I'm just sharing a vignette early in my career.
[00:14:38] It's with an organization and we got a new COO.
[00:14:42] And we were doing a complete redesign of this company, new product, new technology.
[00:14:47] And people were going to be threatened and there was going to be a lot of change.
[00:14:51] And he came out and he said, look, we know the strategy.
[00:14:55] This is our strategy.
[00:14:56] This is the direction we would like to go.
[00:15:00] And we want all of you on board with the strategy and the direction.
[00:15:05] Now, if you need help, you don't understand something, you need to learn something, raise your hand.
[00:15:11] We're going to get you help.
[00:15:12] If you'd like, you know, if you'd like to partner with somebody because they have, they're better at something than you are, we'll create mentorships and partnerships.
[00:15:22] But the one thing you can't do is opt out.
[00:15:26] And so you want help?
[00:15:28] We'll give you help.
[00:15:29] You want a partner?
[00:15:30] We'll give you partners and mentors and creating coaching.
[00:15:34] You want learning?
[00:15:35] We'll create learning.
[00:15:36] But the most unacceptable thing is to say you're not going to do it and to resist the direction.
[00:15:43] And he said, I wish I could be more generous about this.
[00:15:46] But if you don't want to go, and this is not the right place for you, tell us now and we'll package you out.
[00:15:55] And if by this date, we don't package you out.
[00:15:58] We're assuming you're on the train.
[00:16:00] You know, you're at the train station, you're on the train.
[00:16:02] What do you think of that as a strategy?
[00:16:07] Well, I'll give you my take on that.
[00:16:09] I'm sure Sarah's got a point of view, too.
[00:16:15] If you step back a little bit from what you just said, I want to make one thing really, really clear.
[00:16:20] Sure.
[00:16:23] If you go through all the discussions around setting direction, and at that point you think, how do we sell this to our organization?
[00:16:36] You've actually failed.
[00:16:38] You've failed.
[00:16:40] Because the whole idea is, if you engage people, to Sarah's point earlier, formulation of direction, there's nothing to sell.
[00:16:50] They've already bought it.
[00:16:51] They were co-creators.
[00:16:54] But I think what you've got to do during that co-creation process is make it okay for people to dissent.
[00:16:59] Yeah.
[00:17:01] And the whole idea about dissent is we're not saying no.
[00:17:04] Well, we're saying not necessarily in this way.
[00:17:08] Now, it's a little bit like what I said on one of the previous podcasts where you've got to be worth listening to.
[00:17:15] You can't just dissent and say no.
[00:17:18] Yeah.
[00:17:19] There's got to be a whole series of conversations around what no really means.
[00:17:24] So, well, tell us something better.
[00:17:27] Is there a better destination we could go?
[00:17:31] Is there a more interesting route that will take us there?
[00:17:36] I think that kind of dissent leading to those kinds of discussions are great.
[00:17:41] But if the whole idea is we're selling a direction to an organization, you completely lost the plot.
[00:17:48] Yeah.
[00:17:48] Completely lost it.
[00:17:52] You're right.
[00:17:52] Because if you have to sell it, you haven't included them in the direction in the first place.
[00:17:58] And they know it.
[00:17:59] And they know it.
[00:18:01] And, you know, one of the things in this job economy that, you know, we're still dealing with is even though there's been a little blip and, you know, the unemployment rate ticked up a tonth of 1%,
[00:18:14] you still have more jobs than you have people to fill them.
[00:18:18] And in certain sectors, you know, that gap is even wider.
[00:18:24] And you listen and look at all the data that we're getting.
[00:18:30] About 50% of the people that are in jobs today are looking to leave by the end of the year.
[00:18:38] 77% of the people that are in jobs today aren't fully engaged.
[00:18:45] They could care less.
[00:18:48] You know, they have a very, you know, neutral view in the sense of they may not help the organization.
[00:18:55] They may not hurt it either.
[00:18:57] They're just sort of there.
[00:18:59] And then you have a whole 23% of the people that are just going to destroy value.
[00:19:03] And so you have all of this going on.
[00:19:06] And you say, look, all of these organizations, they have a strategy.
[00:19:10] They have a direction.
[00:19:11] They have customers they're committing to.
[00:19:13] How is it that you can have all this going on and have people not focused on the strategy, the direction, the customers, the doing the right work?
[00:19:23] And really, in a connected way, delivering not only for themselves and the customers, but for their peers.
[00:19:32] And create the shared experience of we want to create something great together.
[00:19:40] Some of the more interesting writing I've seen lately is about the uptick in CEO resignations.
[00:19:47] Oh, yes.
[00:19:48] The article that you sent me about all of the manager burnout levels.
[00:19:55] Yeah.
[00:19:56] And I keep thinking there's a really good article in that, that we've got a lot of people who are just in the wrong jobs.
[00:20:01] Yeah.
[00:20:02] Where the talents and characteristics that they have aren't a match for the demands of the role that they're in.
[00:20:08] Yeah.
[00:20:09] Right?
[00:20:09] So it's a good question of how, you know, there's so much to do as a leader where you could be more thoughtful about the direction you're taking people in.
[00:20:18] You could be more thoughtful about establishing connectivity throughout the organization and moving people towards the future.
[00:20:25] I'm just not sure we have enough people who are wired in that way.
[00:20:29] And that's where I think we can be massively helpful in shifting the conversation around what do leaders do and how do we find more people equipped to do it?
[00:20:39] Well, to the point about the articles, you know, there was that article, I think it was fairly recent, where, you know, they were talking about, you know, some of the employee disenchantment.
[00:20:49] You know, like I'm not engaged.
[00:20:51] I'm not really giving it my all.
[00:20:53] Well, and so they started interviewing managers and leaders and they're like, hey, we're just as disenchanted as you are.
[00:21:00] We don't want to go there either.
[00:21:02] And so, and so, yeah, I think it is a challenge, you know, for organizations to, you know, have that right mix.
[00:21:10] And this is why I think the five talents are so important is to find leaders that can connect and can inspire and can, you know, share, you know, a vision and a compelling way forward for an organization.
[00:21:26] It makes all the difference in whether or not you're going to be successful, I think, as a company.
[00:21:32] So as you think about connectivity and increasing connectivity, you know, as I reflect on my career, there were some people I didn't want to connect to.
[00:21:44] Now, you know, we could argue about whether I should have connected to those people, but I didn't want to.
[00:21:50] And the reason for that was that I didn't really have a high respect for their competence.
[00:21:55] And what we talk about in the five talents, particularly in the connectivity section, is that without a high perception of competence, it's difficult to build trust across people.
[00:22:13] Yeah.
[00:22:13] I can't imagine ever trusting an incompetent person.
[00:22:19] So what we have to do, and this is where the exerting pressure and increasing connectivity play really well together, is we have to recognize that it's easy exerting pressure on highly talented people.
[00:22:37] And it's almost a complete waste of time trying to do it on people who struggle with competence.
[00:22:44] So if you want trust as a performance advantage in your organization, we argue for this in the book, you have to start by addressing questions of competence.
[00:22:55] And that means you've got to get your selection right.
[00:22:58] That brings us back to the assessment that this book is written about.
[00:23:02] It is.
[00:23:03] You know, if you focus on raising the talent in your organization, you'll find you have to exert less pressure.
[00:23:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:11] Then you won't have to encourage people to build connectivity because they'll want to do it themselves.
[00:23:17] Because really talented people like associating with other talented people.
[00:23:22] They do.
[00:23:22] It's meaningful affirming.
[00:23:24] And this is how this jigsaw piece of these five talents fits together.
[00:23:31] And, you know, if you read the book, and I hope many people do, and then you try to implement some of the findings but constantly find that you struggle, you've actually got the right people.
[00:23:43] You've got the wrong people around you.
[00:23:45] Yeah.
[00:23:45] That's what it typically boils down to because you've got the right people around you.
[00:23:50] This is easy.
[00:23:51] This shouldn't be a struggle.
[00:23:53] This should be fun.
[00:23:56] You know, and I love working with people who are better than I am.
[00:24:01] I learn from them.
[00:24:03] I'm inspired by them.
[00:24:05] You know, they set phenomenal example.
[00:24:07] I want to emulate them.
[00:24:09] It raises my game.
[00:24:11] But for too few leaders, they feel insecure in that environment.
[00:24:15] And that's because they were the wrong leaders to begin with.
[00:24:18] It reminds me of something that you mentioned on one of our earlier podcasts about you ask people, are you willing to hire people better than you?
[00:24:29] Are you willing to, you know, kind of change the game and bring in really high-performing people?
[00:24:36] And would you hire someone that's better than yourself?
[00:24:39] And everybody says, of course I would.
[00:24:40] I want the best talent ever.
[00:24:42] I'd definitely hire people better than I am.
[00:24:45] And then in practicality, they don't.
[00:24:48] I mean, your research showed they don't.
[00:24:50] They don't hire people that, you know, have maybe more skill or talent than they have.
[00:24:56] And I still think that's very pervasive in organizations today.
[00:25:01] Well, think about what we said in the last podcast when we were talking about setting direction.
[00:25:06] And Sarah mentioned that that was the rarest of the five talents.
[00:25:13] So by implication, that means fewest leaders have got capability in that area.
[00:25:20] You know, if you don't bring really talented people into your organization who can handle that issue,
[00:25:28] then, you know, no amount of hard work and effort is going to compensate.
[00:25:32] And any deficiency on these five talents becomes a selection challenge.
[00:25:37] It does.
[00:25:38] You know, that's why we keep bringing people back to the fact that this story of the five talents is a story of selection.
[00:25:47] It's getting those decisions right and then making each of those five talents easier as a consequence.
[00:25:54] So we've been talking with Barry Conchi and Sarah Dalton about the five talents.
[00:25:59] And specifically today, we've been talking about increasing or harnessing energy and increasing connectivity and exerting pressure.
[00:26:09] And I just can't believe how quickly our time goes by.
[00:26:13] We're really at the end of our time here.
[00:26:15] But we're going to get together again one more time to talk about the five talents.
[00:26:20] But let me just say this to all of our listeners here.
[00:26:23] I've read this book.
[00:26:24] I've been in the organization HR technology space for over 25 years.
[00:26:32] This book is game changing.
[00:26:34] If you get it, if you read it, if you start really understanding what's behind the five talents,
[00:26:41] you can change your organization.
[00:26:44] You can actually create this incredible, high-performing company that you want to be a part of,
[00:26:52] that your team wants to be a part of.
[00:26:54] And that's why I think in terms of like harnessing energy, that's the energy and the secret of the book.
[00:26:59] It changes the future in a way that we want to be a part of it.
[00:27:04] So join us for one more podcast on the five talents that really matter.
[00:27:09] And again, thank you to Barry and Sarah for doing the hard work for us of mining these talents and telling us about them
[00:27:17] and helping us understand better how, in an organization, we can use these to create great places
[00:27:24] where people want to work and where amazing things can happen.
[00:27:28] Thank you so much.
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